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Thread: Terry Ryan's "Thin" SP Market Quote

  1. #41
    The Twins don't need to get a top 10 pitcher in here next year to turn the staff around. They added Pavano in 2009 and he wound up having a great, bounce back year after 3-4 consecutive mediocre seasons.

    His presence led a staff that, by and large was pretty average at best, to some very good numbers in 2010. One guy with the right attitude, having a good season can make a huge difference, especially in this division.

    It would be a huge mistake to dump 20 million dollars or more into one guy like Grienke or Peavy simply because they are the best of an average group of FA pitchers.

  2. #42
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Even though there are a good number of solid #3's out there, I'd rather the Twins not do something stupid like giving one of them 40 million over 3 years. The only thing worse then over paying for elite players is over paying for mediocrity like a Marcum or such. Hopefully the Twins can find the right guy(s) to give the right deals to.
    Marcum has not been mediocre at all. While injured in 2009, he has posted sub 4.00 ERAs in 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012. That's 550ish innings of sub 4.00 ERA. If the Twins aren't going to be willing to throw $30 over 3 years for someone like that, forget about trying to compete and especially forget about trying to win in the playoffs.
    Marcum has proven he can pitch in the AL East with an ERA+ well over 100. I'll take it. He hasn't been quite as good with Milwaukee (surprisingly) but I think he's still a decent pitcher. He has lost something on his fastball (down in the 87mph range now) so he's not my first choice but he wouldn't be a terrible signing by the Twins, I think.
    It's all relative, if the Twins can get him on a 2 year/18 mil deal its a good signing, but the minute you start competeing with a bunch of other teams to overpay him, its a bad signing plain and simple. The rotation is absolute dog **** no doubt, but the solution isn't to go out and over pay for a bunch of "solid #3 type guys" the solution is to trade some assets for some high upside guys who can be top of the rotation guys, and give 1-2 year deals to guys who's value is low, but have the potential to be high upside guys (see: SCOTT BAKER!!!!!!)
    I agree and I disagree. With Marcum, Peavy, Jackson, and Sanchez all offering similar expected performance/money/years this offseason, now is the time to sign a guy to a 3-4 year deal at $10-13m per. Chances are you won't be able to repeat that signing next year (or the following year) because the fewer of those guys there are on the market, the higher the price is driven. It's going to be awhile until we see this many league-average or slightly above league-average guys in the same offseason. It'd be a shame for the Twins to pass on picking up one of them.

    This team gave a 34 year old Pavano $8m a year over two years. They shouldn't balk at giving a guy aged 28-31 $11m a year over three or four years.

  3. #43
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Top of the rotation, middle of the rotation, back end... Does it matter anymore?

    It used to be the the top guy would get the ball on his day and back end guys would miss starts. Teams would use the all star break to get an extra start for a top guy. Other than the Tigers, teams don't do this anymore. The Twins don't. They did the opposite at the all star break to give Diamond a rest.

    Somehow it would be good to get 10 WAR out of their starting pitchers next year. Does it matter if they get 2 WAR from 5 slots?

    There are guys available that can be counted on for 2 WAR. It may cost 5 mil/1 WAR.

    I think Baker is a guy that can provide 2 WAR over 2/3 a season. They can guarantee his spot by picking up the option or negotiating now.

    Diamond or Deduno? Maybe with luck.

    That still leaves two guys to find.

    I should concede now that while during the season a front line pitcher no longer matters as much, it will matter in the playoffs. I hope we have such problems next year.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Even though there are a good number of solid #3's out there, I'd rather the Twins not do something stupid like giving one of them 40 million over 3 years. The only thing worse then over paying for elite players is over paying for mediocrity like a Marcum or such. Hopefully the Twins can find the right guy(s) to give the right deals to.
    Marcum has not been mediocre at all. While injured in 2009, he has posted sub 4.00 ERAs in 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012. That's 550ish innings of sub 4.00 ERA. If the Twins aren't going to be willing to throw $30 over 3 years for someone like that, forget about trying to compete and especially forget about trying to win in the playoffs.
    Marcum has proven he can pitch in the AL East with an ERA+ well over 100. I'll take it. He hasn't been quite as good with Milwaukee (surprisingly) but I think he's still a decent pitcher. He has lost something on his fastball (down in the 87mph range now) so he's not my first choice but he wouldn't be a terrible signing by the Twins, I think.
    It's all relative, if the Twins can get him on a 2 year/18 mil deal its a good signing, but the minute you start competeing with a bunch of other teams to overpay him, its a bad signing plain and simple. The rotation is absolute dog **** no doubt, but the solution isn't to go out and over pay for a bunch of "solid #3 type guys" the solution is to trade some assets for some high upside guys who can be top of the rotation guys, and give 1-2 year deals to guys who's value is low, but have the potential to be high upside guys (see: SCOTT BAKER!!!!!!)
    I agree and I disagree. With Marcum, Peavy, Jackson, and Sanchez all offering similar expected performance/money/years this offseason, now is the time to sign a guy to a 3-4 year deal at $10-13m per. Chances are you won't be able to repeat that signing next year (or the following year) because the fewer of those guys there are on the market, the higher the price is driven. It's going to be awhile until we see this many league-average or slightly above league-average guys in the same offseason. It'd be a shame for the Twins to pass on picking up one of them.

    This team gave a 34 year old Pavano $8m a year over two years. They shouldn't balk at giving a guy aged 28-31 $11m a year over three or four years.
    I agree of course, though I think Sanchez might be a little more because of his age.

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Why don't we locate the possible extremes of what they could do and then work towards a reasonable center . . .

    One extreme, they sign NO pitchers (except for going low-base on Baker) and instead chase down the MI route again . . . rolling out of ST with Diamond-Deduno-DeVries-Hendriks-Walters or Vasquez, and Baker, Gibson, and Hernandez are in AAA (or on the DL in Baker's case).

    On the other possible extreme they sign Edwin Jackson, Shaun Marcum, and let's say Ervin Santana for 2-3 years each and 8-12 million (low 2 years and $48 million, high 3 years $108 million).

    Back to the other extreme: Everything stays the same except they sign either a Joe Saunders or an Erik Bedard on a one-year, $5 million deal.

    Etc. Etc. Maybe this is more structured than just throwing out names.
    I guess I'll play along . . . with myself.

    On the other end, they sign Edwin Jackson and Shaun Marcum for 2-3 years each and 8-12 million each. Cost range: 2/32 -- 3/72. (this is the option I prefer most).

    On the other end they sign both Joe Saunders and Erik Bedard. Cost 1/10. (this is terrifyingly perhaps the most likely scenario)

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    For naysayers on spending say $60 million over three years for Jackson and Marcum:

    It's a risk, but so was trotting out Pavano-Baker-Liriano-Blackburn-Marquis this year. What was that cost? Hint: more than $20 million. And it sucked. Jackson and Marcum at same cost have the potential to be very, very good at 1-2 in the rotation. And Blackburn and Morneau contracts expire after 2013 (and together cost almost $20 million themselves!).

    If the naysaying is merely based on the fact that the Twins are unlikely to do it, that's fine. They would be stupid not to do it if they want to compete in the next three years and have those two in the rotation for the 2015 season when hopefully the youth movement comes in force.

  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Adding those two pitchers, not trading anyone in the offseason, re-signing Baker for a few million + incentives, paying arb to everyone except for Casilla, and the payroll basically doesn't change from 2012.

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