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Thread: Are the Twins calling up Herrmann?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
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    As a new subscriber to this website, I see there is a lot of disdain for Drew Butera. I guess it should not come as a surprise. One look at his offensive stat sheet is a clear give away. I agree with the majority that Butera does not belong on a MLB active roster (one sided players do not work these days). But this is not why I responded to this thread.

    I watched Chris Herrmann's first at bat yesterday and nothing significant came of it, not that I expect a magic moment from every rookie's debut. Herrmann hit the ball sharply, but right at the second baseman.

    Positional flexibility is an important part of the game of baseball and I feel hard pressed to think that Herrmann cannot be a valuable back-up catcher and outfielder who gets 350 PA a season and hits .260+ with a little bit of thump in his bat (doubles hitter).

    As far as I am concerned, Herrmann seems like an important piece to have on a ballclub. Not every baseball prospect is a starter or a star in the making. Herrmann seems to be damn solid because he can be the back-up catcher at some point in the near future and he is not just relegated to that position, backing up the corner outfield positions.

    Also, from what I read, he is rated a good athlete.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    I think Hermsie will start the year at AAA. He needs to be working on his defense behind the plate on a regular basis. If he is going to contribute on a major league team, he HAS to be good behind the plate. A teams #2 catcher needs to be good defensively. I am as down on Butera as everyone else is. He knows how to handle a pitching staff. These guys don't take as much BP as regular position guys as they are watching film and learning the opposing teams hitting tendancies.

    I give up offense for defense in a backup, every 4-5 days catcher. Hitting is a plus but not necessary. Good teams number two catcher is a Redman type guy. A stocky, hard nosed dude who can go out call a game for a young pitcher (or a bipolar one like Liriano). Saying that Butera is as bad a hitter as you can get. Yikes

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    It is doubtful that Herrmann would merely get 100 plate appearances. Without a big drop from Doumit to Butera offensively to deal with (Herrmann probably cuts the difference in half), he can catch some more. Also, as a 5th outfielder, he would get more plate appearances. And Butera is clearly not a pinch hitter, but Herrmann could be used as one. He could get around 150-200 plate appearances. A .250/.330./370 slash is not at all out of the question with him. Even at .230/.310/.360 (probably the bottom for him), that is a significant improvement over Drew Butera and the Thomas/Komatsu debacle.
    Herrmann needs to be the 3rd catcher because every at bat counts and we need the top 25 players on the field but you want to take AB's from Doumit, Mauer, Willingham and give them to Herrmann? If Butera's 100AB's are so important then so are the 50-100 AB's you're trying to assign to Herrmann. You can't have it both ways. So that just bring us back to the 8 extra trips to first base that you get with Herrmann instead of Butera and thus my point that this is a silly point to be stuck on.

  4. #64
    Redmond (and Tom Prince) would come up and do a nice sacrifice. You didn't lose everything when you needed to start them. Same with Henry Blanco. Keeping a guy around for less that 100 at bats...no. Let's have someone who can pinch hit, field decently, and play another position. Maybe time f\or Drew to become a relief pitcher?
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  5. #65
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    [QUOTE=Rosterman;54510]Redmond (and Tom Prince) would come up and do a nice sacrifice. You didn't lose everything when you needed to start them. Same with Henry Blanco. Keeping a guy around for less that 100 at bats...no. Let's have someone who can pinch hit, field decently, and play another position. Maybe time f\or Drew to become a relief pitcher?[/QUOTE]

    People made light of his relief appearance against Milwaukee, and Gardy was downright embarrassed by it. But, he actually acquitted himself quite well for a guy who hadn't pitched since High School. He can throw with more velocity than the majority of the staff (94MPH) and changed speed well, freezing a Brewer with a couple of 78MPH change-ups. If he wants to keep working on getting that pension, it probably is something he should consider.

  6. #66
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    It is doubtful that Herrmann would merely get 100 plate appearances. Without a big drop from Doumit to Butera offensively to deal with (Herrmann probably cuts the difference in half), he can catch some more. Also, as a 5th outfielder, he would get more plate appearances. And Butera is clearly not a pinch hitter, but Herrmann could be used as one. He could get around 150-200 plate appearances. A .250/.330./370 slash is not at all out of the question with him. Even at .230/.310/.360 (probably the bottom for him), that is a significant improvement over Drew Butera and the Thomas/Komatsu debacle.

    Herrmann needs to be the 3rd catcher because every at bat counts and we need the top 25 players on the field but you want to take AB's from Doumit, Mauer, Willingham and give them to Herrmann? If Butera's 100AB's are so important then so are the 50-100 AB's you're trying to assign to Herrmann. You can't have it both ways. So that just bring us back to the 8 extra trips to first base that you get with Herrmann instead of Butera and thus my point that this is a silly point to be stuck on.
    A: I was not aware that Clete Thomas and Erik Komatsu had no plate appearances this year!

    B: I am not "taking away" anything, but I have some reservations about repeating the very good health of Mauer, Willingham, and Doumit. I think Willingham will likely DH a bit more too, anyway.

    C: It is possible to think of Herrmann as the LH 4th OF.

    D: One scenario that I don't like, but might very well happen is that the Twins trade Denard Span. In that case, the primary OF lineup looks to be Willingham-Revere-Parmelee. Late in the game, defensive subs of Herrmann and Mastroianni would likely be wanted when the Twins are ahead. This might not mean a plate appearance, but certainly some innings played.

    E: If Morneau is gone, this clears up more DH time for Doumit anyway, so I would expect more catching time for Herrmann because of that as well.

    F: So, I will play kind and grant you only 12 more trips to first base. Now let me ask you this, is 12 more than 0? Might a couple of runs end up meaning 1 more win, or even 2 wins? Isn't a 1-2 win difference actually significant when talking about the 24th or 25th roster spot?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    It is doubtful that Herrmann would merely get 100 plate appearances. Without a big drop from Doumit to Butera offensively to deal with (Herrmann probably cuts the difference in half), he can catch some more. Also, as a 5th outfielder, he would get more plate appearances. And Butera is clearly not a pinch hitter, but Herrmann could be used as one. He could get around 150-200 plate appearances. A .250/.330./370 slash is not at all out of the question with him. Even at .230/.310/.360 (probably the bottom for him), that is a significant improvement over Drew Butera and the Thomas/Komatsu debacle.

    Herrmann needs to be the 3rd catcher because every at bat counts and we need the top 25 players on the field but you want to take AB's from Doumit, Mauer, Willingham and give them to Herrmann? If Butera's 100AB's are so important then so are the 50-100 AB's you're trying to assign to Herrmann. You can't have it both ways. So that just bring us back to the 8 extra trips to first base that you get with Herrmann instead of Butera and thus my point that this is a silly point to be stuck on.
    A: I was not aware that Clete Thomas and Erik Komatsu had no plate appearances this year!
    Everything you have written up to this point has been in a future tense, "Herrmann would get...." or "Herrmann could ... ". Obviously in said future world there is no Thomas or Komatsu. So now you're taking ABs away from a legitimate OF prospect.
    B: I am not "taking away" anything, but I have some reservations about repeating the very good health of Mauer, Willingham, and Doumit. I think Willingham will likely DH a bit more too, anyway.
    None of which has happened. So at this point yes, you are taking away presumptive ABs from healthy starters. If Mauer or Doumit were to get hurt a roster move could certainly be made and if Butera were to get significant playing time then it becomes an issue. Until that time however you're still at ~100 ABs.
    C: It is possible to think of Herrmann as the LH 4th OF.
    To what end? We already have Mastroianni who is almost perfect in the 4th OF spot.

    D: One scenario that I don't like, but might very well happen is that the Twins trade Denard Span. In that case, the primary OF lineup looks to be Willingham-Revere-Parmelee. Late in the game, defensive subs of Herrmann and Mastroianni would likely be wanted when the Twins are ahead. This might not mean a plate appearance, but certainly some innings played.

    E: If Morneau is gone, this clears up more DH time for Doumit anyway, so I would expect more catching time for Herrmann because of that as well.
    Again, neither of these has happened yet so they are moot points.

    F: So, I will play kind and grant you only 12 more trips to first base. Now let me ask you this, is 12 more than 0? Might a couple of runs end up meaning 1 more win, or even 2 wins? Isn't a 1-2 win difference actually significant when talking about the 24th or 25th roster spot?
    You think that 8-12 extra hits over the course of the season equates to 1-2 more wins? I would be interested what the WAR guys have to say about that. I personally doubt it would come out to even 1 win from a probability perspective.

    Right now the Twins 3rd catcher is only going to get ~100ABs next season again. When you're talking about 100 ABs it doesn't matter if that catcher is Butera or Herrmann. The amount of opportunities combined with the small difference between their hitting acumen is such that they will have little to no effect on next seasons outcome. If the number of ABs meaningfully changes then this becomes a valid discussion.

  8. #68
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Herrmann is LH, Mastroianni is RH. Replacing Willingham with Herrmann against righties, was the point by saying a LH 4th OF.

    Not sure why we are bothering with anything in this discussion if we are not allowed, apparently, to make predictions. It isn't crazy to think that it is more likely than not that Mauer-Doumit-Willingham will be on the field a bit less in 2013 than they were in 2012. It also isn't crazy to think that Span is traded in the offseason and that Willingham-Revere-Parmelee will be the primary OF until at least June 1 (and then only if Hicks/Arcia is/are tearing it up).

    I realize that generally 12 extra hits (add a walk as well) doesn't equate to 2 wins. Some of those hits are extra base hits, including a homer (again, I am making predictions so . . . ) and some of those plate appearances may be late in the game since A: Herrmann, unlike Butera, is a viable PH option, and B: Herrmann, unlike Butera, is a complete offensive liability in need of being PH for in late innings. Late inning plate appearances in close games were what I was referring to there. Anyway, so what if it ends up being 0.6 of a win. I forgot that 0.6 is lower than 0.

  9. #69
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I love this logic. Where does the idea that "well....he's only got X impact" end? The starting 9? The tenth guy on the bench? How many relievers deep?

    How about, instead, we don't hand away any of our 25 spots and shoot for competent players at all of them? Why is that an idea that anyone would disagree with?

  10. #70
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I love this logic. Where does the idea that "well....he's only got X impact" end? The starting 9? The tenth guy on the bench? How many relievers deep?

    How about, instead, we don't hand away any of our 25 spots and shoot for competent players at all of them? Why is that an idea that anyone would disagree with?
    That is exactly what I mean. 2012 should be seen (not that the Twins view it this way, somehow) as a test for the 25-man roster. Those who have passed are: Span, Revere, Mauer, Willingham, Morneau, Doumit, Plouffe, Carroll, Parmelee, Mastroianni . . . Diamond, Perkins, Burton, Duensing (wildly misused), Fien, and DeVries. Those in question: Dozier, Florimon, Deduno, Walters, Hendriks, Burnett, and Swarzak. Those who failed and need to go away: Gray (et al of his ilk), Blackburn, Casilla, and Thomas.

    16 players passed. One or two of them might be traded. That means that roughly 10 places are in contention on the roster, with perhaps 5 having an inside track (Dozier, Florimon, Deduno, Hendriks, and Swarzak).

  11. #71
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    I will leave this last post and then let this go since it is beginning to smell like rotting horse flesh.

    I have two problems with posts in this thread. First, replacing Butera with any other catcher will make no statistical difference to the Twins. He only got 100ABs this year and won't be slated to get more next season. Given such a low number of ABs replacing Butera does nothing to increase the Twins winning %. Yet somehow there has been 70 posts in this thread and this is only one of many threads on this topic. I can't think of another demand on this board that is so loudly shouted and yet would produce so little.

    Second, there seems to be some posters on this board that have a double standard when it comes to Butera. These poster decry things like "put the best 25 men on the field" and use it as justification for removing Drew from the roster. I have no particular problem with this per se but these same posters will also post how we need to get Player X more AB's or more Prospect Y to the majors so we can "See what they can do" or "give them a chance". Typically this involves decreasing the ABs or playing time of our best players in one fashion or another. These two lines of thought are logically inconsistent and they seem to both be centered around Butera more often than not.

    So there. I've said my piece and will leave this thread to progress as it will. Go forth ye posters and draft such beautiful and persuasive prose that you'll vanquish your nemesis in a single posting and the fair maidens will tremble as thou name whispers past their crimson lips.

  12. #72
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    I will leave this last post and then let this go since it is beginning to smell like rotting horse flesh.

    I have two problems with posts in this thread. First, replacing Butera with any other catcher will make no statistical difference to the Twins. He only got 100ABs this year and won't be slated to get more next season. Given such a low number of ABs replacing Butera does nothing to increase the Twins winning %. Yet somehow there has been 70 posts in this thread and this is only one of many threads on this topic. I can't think of another demand on this board that is so loudly shouted and yet would produce so little.

    Second, there seems to be some posters on this board that have a double standard when it comes to Butera. These poster decry things like "put the best 25 men on the field" and use it as justification for removing Drew from the roster. I have no particular problem with this per se but these same posters will also post how we need to get Player X more AB's or more Prospect Y to the majors so we can "See what they can do" or "give them a chance". Typically this involves decreasing the ABs or playing time of our best players in one fashion or another. These two lines of thought are logically inconsistent and they seem to both be centered around Butera more often than not.

    So there. I've said my piece and will leave this thread to progress as it will. Go forth ye posters and draft such beautiful and persuasive prose that you'll vanquish your nemesis in a single posting and the fair maidens will tremble as thou name whispers past their crimson lips.
    I will be prickish to prevent you from leaving this thread . . .

    It amazes me that people would rather have lesser players play instead of guys who might mean 0.5 of a win. That 0.5 adds up when we are talking about the bottom four players on the roster. Butera is not a good player. He just isn't and it is hard to dispute that. He can work with pitchers, but maybe he should do that in the minors?

    The rest of your post, Oxtung, is pretty ridiculous. And it ends with a muddied thought about posters here thinking they know the absolute truth about things . . . I don't see that here. At least not since the disappearance of Fanatic Jack.

  13. #73
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    These two lines of thought are logically inconsistent and they seem to both be centered around Butera more often than not.
    Again, the logic that the 25th man on the roster doesn't matter is an incredibly slippery slope. The team should want every player on their roster to be the best they can reasonably field. Given how historically awful Butera has been, it shouldn't be controversial to ask the team to improve that area.

  14. #74
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    If the Twins are bad, it doesn't really matter if Butera is on the roster. It just doesn't.

    But if the Twins are planning on fielding a competitive team, you put the best 25 guys on the roster. Will it amount to 1-2 additional wins? I don't know (and I doubt it) but why take the chance? Why not field a guy who isn't completely inept at the plate, even if he only gets 50 ABs?

    If it comes down to "we need to spend $1m to pick up another catcher", that's different. That $1m could probably be used for a more significant improvement elsewhere on the diamond. But if it costs the team nothing to field Hermann instead of Butera and Hermann turns out to be something north of "historically bad", there's just no reason not to do it.

  15. #75
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Drew will be in his year of arbitration next year, right? I wonder how much of a raise from the minimum he will actually get? Anyway, Herrmann will probably save them a few hundred thousand.

  16. #76
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Drew will be in his year of arbitration next year, right? I wonder how much of a raise from the minimum he will actually get? Anyway, Herrmann will probably save them a few hundred thousand.
    He'll be a super-2 this offseason. Probably something like 800 thousand.
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  17. #77
    Senior Member Double-A Wookiee of the Year's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    I will leave this last post and then let this go since it is beginning to smell like rotting horse flesh.

    I have two problems with posts in this thread. First, replacing Butera with any other catcher will make no statistical difference to the Twins. He only got 100ABs this year and won't be slated to get more next season. Given such a low number of ABs replacing Butera does nothing to increase the Twins winning %. Yet somehow there has been 70 posts in this thread and this is only one of many threads on this topic. I can't think of another demand on this board that is so loudly shouted and yet would produce so little.

    Second, there seems to be some posters on this board that have a double standard when it comes to Butera. These poster decry things like "put the best 25 men on the field" and use it as justification for removing Drew from the roster. I have no particular problem with this per se but these same posters will also post how we need to get Player X more AB's or more Prospect Y to the majors so we can "See what they can do" or "give them a chance". Typically this involves decreasing the ABs or playing time of our best players in one fashion or another. These two lines of thought are logically inconsistent and they seem to both be centered around Butera more often than not.

    So there. I've said my piece and will leave this thread to progress as it will. Go forth ye posters and draft such beautiful and persuasive prose that you'll vanquish your nemesis in a single posting and the fair maidens will tremble as thou name whispers past their crimson lips.
    I'm new here, so I'll avoid commenting on the tendencies of other posters, but I think there's a big difference between (1) wanting to test out prospects in the majors to see what they can do during a lost season, even if it requires benching better players, and (2) trying to build the best 25-man roster the Twins can for 2013. I also think there's a difference between temporarily putting a lower-quality player with upside on the field to "see what he can do," and permanently setting a roster when you're dealing with players who are known quantities. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to see the Twins go with a known downgrade to "see what [Player X] can do," especially on a contending team. But if I have a team with a lost season and an unknown quantity who might be better than a known quantity? Yes, I'd want to see him in action, and I don't see that as inconsistent.

    Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong or you're responding to sentiments different enough from my own that they do represent logical inconsistencies. But I don't see trying to get a handle on a player's major league-level ability when it's unknown and striving to put together the best roster as contradictory in the slightest.

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