Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 75 of 75

Thread: Minnesotans want Ron Gardenhire to keep his job

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
    Posts
    1,889
    Like
    423
    Liked 345 Times in 196 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me.

    So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size.
    I remember intense September baseball as well -- except for 2010 -- which was the beginning of the current debacle.

    What I don't remember is particularly intense October baseball.

    You can argue all you want about pitching and meeting better teams but I still believe that Gardenhire's teams have underperformed in the post-season. Ironically I believe that it is probably because of his regular season mentality. Gardenhire is all about the long view -- never get too high or low, there will be another game tomorrow.

    But the playoffs aren't like that. There WON'T always be another game tomorrow -- there is a premium on winning early (and now a premium on winning a 1-game playoff if you are a wild card team). I believe that Gardenhire's philosophy has served the Twins very well during regular seasons -- and I do believe that his teams have won a Central Division championship or two that they probably wouldn't have won under another manager. But I believe that same mind set has been pretty much a disaster in the post season.

    I don't hate Ron Gardenhire but the time has come for him to step down. It is time for an injection of new energy and ideas. It may be a disaster -- and it may be necessary to make more than one change -- but I'd rather see that than the stagnation we are currently witnessing (and that goes for the front office, too).

  2. #62
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,107
    Like
    369
    Liked 326 Times in 216 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    Really? That's your argument. A .002 difference in win percentage?

    That's statistically insignificant.
    1 Twins hot streak could put Gardy back on top in that race.

    Not to mention, surely even you can work out why Gardy hasn't been run out of town the way Childress was. Childress had alieanted virtually everyone in the organization by the time he got canned, and had lost the support of his players completely.

    And Childress was cheated out of nothing. When you take yourself out of range of a potential game winning field goal with a too many men on the field penalty, you don't deserve to win, and you have no right to complain.

    But back to baseball - if winning percentage is your measuring stick, why don't you look up how .525 stacks up against other managers, past and present. Guys like Maddon, Showalter and Tom Kelly for example.

    Here a hint: it's higher. But I guess that's just "pro-Gardy bias", right?
    In reverse order:

    TK has 2 rings and a great post season record. Maddon has an excellent post-season record. Showalter is as good as Gardy

    The Vikings were cheated big time at that game. Lots of non-calls including the bounty calls. If they called that personal foul dirty hit against Favre game was over. But the powers of being definitely had a Katrina-driven agenda.

    Again, I said that Gardy's record is worse than Childress and they got totally different treatment by the fan base. Regular season records are a dead heat (so Gardy is about as great as Childress, I give you that) but the postseason/playoff records are not. Gardy is light years worse. And this is a fact.
    Winning percentages between football and baseball are apples and oranges. A great baseball team might win 60% of their games (~100 wins) but win 60% (10-6) of your games in football and you aren't even guaranteed to go to the playoffs. Great teams in football win 80%-90% of their games.
    Huh ?!? This is a partly true, but in the end, still a specious argument, is the discussion even about "great teams"? Even by your criteria, Gardenhire has never had a "great team" (closest was .593 in 06), he's 0/11, while Childress had one, making him 1/5.

    These are just some of many playoff teams and/or division champs over the years thanks to the ridiculous priority placed on geographical division alignments in the "League of Parity", the NFL:



    78 Vikings 8-7-1
    80 Vikings 9-7
    04 Vikings 8-8
    04 Rams 8-8
    10 Seahawks 7-9 (division winners!)
    04 Seahawks 9-7
    99 Seahawks 9-7
    99 Dolphins 9-7
    95 Dolphins 9-7 (These are just a few of the countless 9-7 playoff/div. champ teams)
    09 Jets 9-7
    09 Ravens 9-7
    91 Jets 8-8
    90 Saints 8-8
    85 Browns 8-8
    82 Browns 4-5
    82 Lions 4-5
    11 Cincy 9-7
    11 Broncos 8-8
    08 Chargers 8-8
    06 Giants 8-8

    There are mediocre teams that make the playoffs in MLB as well- who would dispute that the inbalanced schedule has skewed Gardy's record significantly better than it should be?, his dreadful performance against the Eastern Division is well documented. He made his career mark feasting on the dregs of the AL and just about every inter-division series against the clearly inferior NL. This has clearly been more than "good enough" for the ownership, which fought a pitched battle to commit club suicide- leave the state or contract itself out of existence- from 2001 to 2007. It's also "good enough" for the fans, just happy to still have a team in town with a laconic, unflashy, but seemingly successful, manager. Childress, though on the surface similar in delivery to Gardenhire, by dint of his aloof and secretive ways and anal personality, was never able to endear himself in Minnesota.


    In the end, the point of discussion is about a body of work over a career and the final net record, not single season "great teams". Both compiled records in some of the weaker-to-mediocre divisions in their respective leagues. Gardy gets the edge for making the playoffs, watered down as these accomplishments are, 6/11 years, Childress made it in 2/5 years. As far as postseason goes, Gardy and Childress come up short yet again, as they both were able to make it past the first round of the playoffs just once. Curiously though, Gardy did it in his first year, inheriting a group of up-and-comers, and failed to learn and build from the experience- as we all are well aware, he has been a playoff flopper ever since, even with "better" teams on paper, and losing embarrassingly meekly each time.
    Wow did you miss the point of my post. Let me try this again without #'s since that seems to have diverted you from the point. Football and baseball are very different sports. A .525 winning percentage in football is not the same as a .525 winning percentage in football from a success stand point. So like I said in my last post...apples and oranges.
    Congrats for veering conveniently past my points.

  3. #63
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,107
    Like
    369
    Liked 326 Times in 216 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Sometimes I think the Anti-Gardy crowd is just trying to stir things up. Some of the points made are rediculous...

    If you think a different manager will be a better fit next year... OK... Let's hear it... I'm down with that... There may be some valid reasons for a change. Fresh Voice... I can hear that... Someone who works with young players better... I can hear that...

    But... if the reason is because Gardy sucks in the playoffs and that he won division titles against weak oppenents... You are not worth reading!!!
    This.

    I'm in the "it's time for a change" camp. I like Gardy, I think he's a very good manager. And given that he's finished the top 3 in MOTY voting 7 times, clearly I'm not alone. I'm not saying he's a great manager or deserves to be enshrined in Cooperstown, you can question some things he does like you could with any manager. I just don't understand the "Gardy sucks" crowd.
    If that's how you conceptualize my take, you are mistaken, my friend. I attend the same camp that you do, although it's demonstrable that Gardy has been a bedwetter at the postseason camp throughout his career, too.

  4. #64
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,107
    Like
    369
    Liked 326 Times in 216 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    It's really not that hard to understand. You have to qualify for the playoffs first. You can't enter the World Series Building until you find the playoff door. If the Twins are part of a division with weaker teams. So be it... but let's not assume that the Tigers and White Sox were just laying there sleeping and not making an effort at all.

    Once there... Anyone can win it... Who's hot... Who's not... David Freese anyone?

    I don't have a lot of time for anyone who thinks that Gardy should be blamed for the Twins Playoff Record when so many managers couldn't even find the door.

    I'd like to see a new Manager next year... However... it won't take a calender... It will take a stop watch... To time how quickly that new manager is torn apart.

    Sometimes I think the Anti-Gardy crowd is just trying to stir things up. Some of the points made are rediculous...

    If you think a different manager will be a better fit next year... OK... Let's hear it... I'm down with that... There may be some valid reasons for a change. Fresh Voice... I can hear that... Someone who works with young players better... I can hear that...

    But... if the reason is because Gardy sucks in the playoffs and that he won division titles against weak oppenents... You are not worth reading!!!
    Even if all the points are demonstrably valid?
    We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me.

    So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size.
    I don't dismiss it and enjoyed it when it occurred, winning all those AAAA championships was better, for example, than winning the MIAC championship, for sure. Unfortunately, it is demonstrable that Mr. Regular Season Manager never grew into a better manager for postseason baseball, or for that matter, a manager capable of raising his team's competitive level to AL Eastern Division Standards.

  5. #65
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    7,011
    Like
    1,150
    Liked 664 Times in 429 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me.

    So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size.
    I remember intense September baseball as well -- except for 2010 -- which was the beginning of the current debacle.

    What I don't remember is particularly intense October baseball.

    You can argue all you want about pitching and meeting better teams but I still believe that Gardenhire's teams have underperformed in the post-season. Ironically I believe that it is probably because of his regular season mentality. Gardenhire is all about the long view -- never get too high or low, there will be another game tomorrow.

    But the playoffs aren't like that. There WON'T always be another game tomorrow -- there is a premium on winning early (and now a premium on winning a 1-game playoff if you are a wild card team). I believe that Gardenhire's philosophy has served the Twins very well during regular seasons -- and I do believe that his teams have won a Central Division championship or two that they probably wouldn't have won under another manager. But I believe that same mind set has been pretty much a disaster in the post season.

    I don't hate Ron Gardenhire but the time has come for him to step down. It is time for an injection of new energy and ideas. It may be a disaster -- and it may be necessary to make more than one change -- but I'd rather see that than the stagnation we are currently witnessing (and that goes for the front office, too).
    September acts exactly like October. There is no tomorrow when you are fighting for a playoff spot. The difference is you don't play the last place teams in October. You don't survive September with "There is another game tomorrow mentality".

    Yes the Twins have underperformed in the post season... No one can dispute that... The record is clear to see...

    October baseball comes down to the best teams in that season. Who is hot and who is healthy. Ultimately... Playoff baseball is a small sample size.

    How you performed last year in the playoffs... or the year before that... or the year before that... or the decade before that... has nothing to do with the current year.

    A manager can lose 9 straight in the playoffs and then win a World Series the next time round.

    New Players every year... New Rotation every year... The context of each team changes from year to year.

    All managers should be equipped for the longview. You have to get in... To Win it...

    Disclaimer... If I was the owner... Based on my gut feeling and no inside information... I would be changing managers for 2013. I just don't buy the argument that Gardy sucks because of his Playoff record.

    Gardy has been nothing but a comparable success over 90 percent of the managers in baseball during his tenure.

    The Question is how much Gardy had to do with that? How much the GM had to do with that? How much the players had to do with that? How much the Baseball Gods had to do with?

    Playoff record... Same Questions?

    I just wish the anti-Gardy crowd don't take competeting for AL Central titles for granted. Gardy has had a hell of a run!!!

  6. #66
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,107
    Like
    369
    Liked 326 Times in 216 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me.

    So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size.
    I remember intense September baseball as well -- except for 2010 -- which was the beginning of the current debacle.

    What I don't remember is particularly intense October baseball.

    You can argue all you want about pitching and meeting better teams but I still believe that Gardenhire's teams have underperformed in the post-season. Ironically I believe that it is probably because of his regular season mentality. Gardenhire is all about the long view -- never get too high or low, there will be another game tomorrow.

    But the playoffs aren't like that. There WON'T always be another game tomorrow -- there is a premium on winning early (and now a premium on winning a 1-game playoff if you are a wild card team). I believe that Gardenhire's philosophy has served the Twins very well during regular seasons -- and I do believe that his teams have won a Central Division championship or two that they probably wouldn't have won under another manager. But I believe that same mind set has been pretty much a disaster in the post season.

    I don't hate Ron Gardenhire but the time has come for him to step down. It is time for an injection of new energy and ideas. It may be a disaster -- and it may be necessary to make more than one change -- but I'd rather see that than the stagnation we are currently witnessing (and that goes for the front office, too).
    September acts exactly like October. There is no tomorrow when you are fighting for a playoff spot. The difference is you don't play the last place teams in October. You don't survive September with "There is another game tomorrow mentality".

    Yes the Twins have underperformed in the post season... No one can dispute that... The record is clear to see...


    October baseball comes down to the best teams in that season. Who is hot and who is healthy. Ultimately... Playoff baseball is a small sample size.

    How you performed last year in the playoffs... or the year before that... or the year before that... or the decade before that... has nothing to do with the current year.


    A manager can lose 9 straight in the playoffs and then win a World Series the next time round.

    New Players every year... New Rotation every year... The context of each team changes from year to year.

    All managers should be equipped for the longview. You have to get in... To Win it...

    Disclaimer... If I was the owner... Based on my gut feeling and no inside information... I would be changing managers for 2013. I just don't buy the argument that Gardy sucks because of his Playoff record.

    Gardy has been nothing but a comparable success over 90 percent of the managers in baseball during his tenure.

    The Question is how much Gardy had to do with that? How much the GM had to do with that? How much the players had to do with that? How much the Baseball Gods had to do with?

    Playoff record... Same Questions?

    I just wish the anti-Gardy crowd don't take competeting for AL Central titles for granted. Gardy has had a hell of a run!!!
    Just because you believe the statements highlighted above in bold doesn't necessarily make them true. In the seasons where Gardy clinched early, his teams laid down immediately in the regular season and the opportunity to- get healthy, set up your rotation, gather your focus on the task ahead- still ended up in failure upon failure. Although there's always an inevitable amount of luck involed, winning more bigger-stakes games in October isn't only just one big cosmic crap-shoot. Gardy's teams have had Cy Young and MVP winners, as well as superior role players that other league champs and World Series winners found a way to win without. By the same token, he has found ways to maximize the Twins on-field success despite an owership that prioritizes the business bottom line over anything else. But to implicitly deny that Gardy's tenure has revealed blind spots and fundamental flaws in his managerial approach is just denying reality.

    FWIW, I don't hate Gardy and I don't represent the POV of the crowd you characterize as "Gardy Sucks". I don't have his photo pasted to a dart-board. I merely offered my own critical evalution of his time at the helm. I concur with your conclusion that it's time for a change after Gardy's great run- and that Gardy shares only his apportioned amount of the successes and failures with the others in the mix.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    590
    Like
    1
    Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    If that's how you conceptualize my take, you are mistaken, my friend. I attend the same camp that you do, although it's demonstrable that Gardy has been a bedwetter at the postseason camp throughout his career, too.

    ---Well the Twins have certainly fared poorly in the postseason, but I don't put as much of the blame on Gardy as you do. Postseason baseball is team vs. team, not manager vs. manager.

    A lot of the Twins playoff losses were close games that turned on one or two plays that the other team made and the Twins didn't. Nathan blowing saves, Kubel completely forgetting how to hit, baserunning blunders, I just don't see how Gardy is to blame for these things.

    Injuries played a role too. Liriano in '06. Morneau in '09 and '10. In '87 we were on the other side of that with Jack Clark. Suppose Clark had played in that series while Hrbek had been on the self - does it come out the same way? And if no, then are we still talking about what a great manager TK was?

    As Riverbrian pointed out, the playoffs are a tiny sample size. Do the poor playoff performances of Rod Carew and Ted Williams detract from their legacies? Were they 'bedwetters' too?

    I also disagree with the dismissiveness with which Gardy's division titles are often viewed. The relative strength of the AL Central notwithstanding, to succeed year in and year out over the long grind of a 162-game season is a really tough thing to do. For all the talk about the legendary managerial genius of TK, he wasn't able string together multiple successful seasons like that.
    Up until 2010, the Twins were often significantly outspent by the White Sox and Tigers, so it's not like they had a huge talent advantage over their division rivals.

  8. #68
    It all comes down to expectations.
    Are you happy with 6 division titles followed by immediate flameouts.....fine. The Yanks canned Joe Torre because of expectaions.
    I just want this organization to have loftier hopes, not just sell 2.5m seats & 'play your butts off'.
    Guys that support Gardy will argue injuries in 11. Well they were healthy this year and just as bad.
    This year, its because of starting pitching supporters will say. Well, this was the rotation that Gardy/Ryan argued in 11 if he had back that they would contend. No fans were stunned that Blackburn/Liriano flamed out as that's what their career numbers predicted. Marquis, everyone saw that coming. Scot Baker & Pavano were due to Twins/Gardy's lame medical staff not diagnosing 2 pitchers who've battled injuries(some big/some minor) the past several yrs. The starting staff flameout IS due to Gardy/Andy choice of starters.

  9. #69
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,107
    Like
    369
    Liked 326 Times in 216 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    If that's how you conceptualize my take, you are mistaken, my friend. I attend the same camp that you do, although it's demonstrable that Gardy has been a bedwetter at the postseason camp throughout his career, too.

    ---Well the Twins have certainly fared poorly in the postseason, but I don't put as much of the blame on Gardy as you do. Postseason baseball is team vs. team, not manager vs. manager.

    A lot of the Twins playoff losses were close games that turned on one or two plays that the other team made and the Twins didn't. Nathan blowing saves, Kubel completely forgetting how to hit, baserunning blunders, I just don't see how Gardy is to blame for these things.

    Injuries played a role too. Liriano in '06. Morneau in '09 and '10. In '87 we were on the other side of that with Jack Clark. Suppose Clark had played in that series while Hrbek had been on the self - does it come out the same way? And if no, then are we still talking about what a great manager TK was?

    As Riverbrian pointed out, the playoffs are a tiny sample size. Do the poor playoff performances of Rod Carew and Ted Williams detract from their legacies? Were they 'bedwetters' too?

    I also disagree with the dismissiveness with which Gardy's division titles are often viewed. The relative strength of the AL Central notwithstanding, to succeed year in and year out over the long grind of a 162-game season is a really tough thing to do. For all the talk about the legendary managerial genius of TK, he wasn't able string together multiple successful seasons like that.
    Up until 2010, the Twins were often significantly outspent by the White Sox and Tigers, so it's not like they had a huge talent advantage over their division rivals.
    There are regular season red flags about Gardy's tenure, as well. Even in this miserable 2012 season, the Twins have continued a long-established pattern of padding their overall W-L record against the mediocrities, with success against KC (11-7), Cle. (10-5) and the NL (9-9).

    2012 Interdivision records, predictable, as past is prologue: Central (30-33 .476), East (10-18 .357), West (11-27 .289!).

    Throughout his tenure, Gardy has never developed changes in strategy (like Oakland, Texas and especially Tampa Bay) to be more consistently competitive outside of his own division.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    120
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Gardy was the one who got the twins the reputation for doing things the twins way. Defense and hustle. Just because his players are worse now and some rookies made errors, you can't blame him.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
    Posts
    102
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    From what I have read on this thread there is way too much passion about Gardenhire on both sides of this worthless coin.

    Managers are mostly overrated in modern times.. If this was 10 years ago, I could see the argument for keeping Gardenhire - that was a long time ago and those old time memories don't adhere to 9.16.12.

    Two 90+ losing seasons from a club that has toed the line and had a few better than okay seasons in 10 years is not enough to spare Mr. Gardenhire's job. Give him a nice severance payment and get him and his staff out of this organization. New blood is needed.

    And for those who think Joe Maddon or Mike Scioscia are gods of managing, they are overrated too. The Twins need to hire a cheap, semi-young upstart manager.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    120
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    If you blame this years struggles on the rotation:
    Gardy couldn't have prevented Baker's injury
    Gardy didn't sign Marquis and couldn't control how bad he was
    Nobody could make Francisco stay good for an extended period- the white sox haven't been able to and nobody wanted to bet that they could at the trade deadline by trading anyone decent for him
    Gardy chose the established ok back of the rotation starter Blackburn instead of unknowns from triple A
    Gardy chose the decent inning eater getting paid 8m Pavano instead of unknowns from AAA

    I don't see what he could have done better with the rotation.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
    Posts
    102
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by SpantheMan View Post
    If you blame this years struggles on the rotation:
    Gardy couldn't have prevented Baker's injury
    Gardy didn't sign Marquis and couldn't control how bad he was
    Nobody could make Francisco stay good for an extended period- the white sox haven't been able to and nobody wanted to bet that they could at the trade deadline by trading anyone decent for him
    Gardy chose the established ok back of the rotation starter Blackburn instead of unknowns from triple A
    Gardy chose the decent inning eater getting paid 8m Pavano instead of unknowns from AAA

    I don't see what he could have done better with the rotation.
    If Gardy was a Great manager (of which I don't think exists), he would have lifted our mediocre AAA staff above and beyond their abilities (just kidding). 11 seasons as a manager is a great run, It is time to make a change. New ideas, new energy and a level of uncertainty and fear for the players is the answer. This kitchen needs a new head chef. In terms of reward - yesterday is obsolete, the present and future is controllable - this is all that matters for the Twins.

  14. #74
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    7,011
    Like
    1,150
    Liked 664 Times in 429 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    We just got done watching the Orioles and Rays play intense September baseball. I remember that feeling and it was every year but one under Gardys watch. How anyone can simply dismiss that and take it for granted is beyond me.

    So the playoffs haven't worked out. They usually didn't work out for Bobby Cox either. Playoff record Smeckord. A playoff record is the very definition of small sample size.
    I remember intense September baseball as well -- except for 2010 -- which was the beginning of the current debacle.

    What I don't remember is particularly intense October baseball.

    You can argue all you want about pitching and meeting better teams but I still believe that Gardenhire's teams have underperformed in the post-season. Ironically I believe that it is probably because of his regular season mentality. Gardenhire is all about the long view -- never get too high or low, there will be another game tomorrow.

    But the playoffs aren't like that. There WON'T always be another game tomorrow -- there is a premium on winning early (and now a premium on winning a 1-game playoff if you are a wild card team). I believe that Gardenhire's philosophy has served the Twins very well during regular seasons -- and I do believe that his teams have won a Central Division championship or two that they probably wouldn't have won under another manager. But I believe that same mind set has been pretty much a disaster in the post season.

    I don't hate Ron Gardenhire but the time has come for him to step down. It is time for an injection of new energy and ideas. It may be a disaster -- and it may be necessary to make more than one change -- but I'd rather see that than the stagnation we are currently witnessing (and that goes for the front office, too).
    September acts exactly like October. There is no tomorrow when you are fighting for a playoff spot. The difference is you don't play the last place teams in October. You don't survive September with "There is another game tomorrow mentality".

    Yes the Twins have underperformed in the post season... No one can dispute that... The record is clear to see...


    October baseball comes down to the best teams in that season. Who is hot and who is healthy. Ultimately... Playoff baseball is a small sample size.

    How you performed last year in the playoffs... or the year before that... or the year before that... or the decade before that... has nothing to do with the current year.


    A manager can lose 9 straight in the playoffs and then win a World Series the next time round.

    New Players every year... New Rotation every year... The context of each team changes from year to year.

    All managers should be equipped for the longview. You have to get in... To Win it...

    Disclaimer... If I was the owner... Based on my gut feeling and no inside information... I would be changing managers for 2013. I just don't buy the argument that Gardy sucks because of his Playoff record.

    Gardy has been nothing but a comparable success over 90 percent of the managers in baseball during his tenure.

    The Question is how much Gardy had to do with that? How much the GM had to do with that? How much the players had to do with that? How much the Baseball Gods had to do with?

    Playoff record... Same Questions?

    I just wish the anti-Gardy crowd don't take competeting for AL Central titles for granted. Gardy has had a hell of a run!!!
    Just because you believe the statements highlighted above in bold doesn't necessarily make them true. In the seasons where Gardy clinched early, his teams laid down immediately in the regular season and the opportunity to- get healthy, set up your rotation, gather your focus on the task ahead- still ended up in failure upon failure. Although there's always an inevitable amount of luck involed, winning more bigger-stakes games in October isn't only just one big cosmic crap-shoot. Gardy's teams have had Cy Young and MVP winners, as well as superior role players that other league champs and World Series winners found a way to win without. By the same token, he has found ways to maximize the Twins on-field success despite an owership that prioritizes the business bottom line over anything else. But to implicitly deny that Gardy's tenure has revealed blind spots and fundamental flaws in his managerial approach is just denying reality.

    FWIW, I don't hate Gardy and I don't represent the POV of the crowd you characterize as "Gardy Sucks". I don't have his photo pasted to a dart-board. I merely offered my own critical evalution of his time at the helm. I concur with your conclusion that it's time for a change after Gardy's great run- and that Gardy shares only his apportioned amount of the successes and failures with the others in the mix.
    I'm not denying reality... lol... I'm trying to be as real as humanly possible. I'd make the change for 2013... But I wouldn't use his playoff record as the reason for making the changing... How real can I get?

    Gardy has made a bunch of head scratching moves to me... This is my opinion. I've also watched Tony LaRussa and Sparky Anderson make head scratching moves as well. That's my personal opinion on the matter and it amounts to very little because... just cuz I think something... doesn't mean that everyone in the world agrees with me. How Real can I get?

    My opinion... and my weighting... A strong regular season record is much more important than a playoff record. The Playoffs are just a collection of small sample sizes... If you get knocked out in the first round 3 games to zero in 2000... And you get knocked out in the first round 3 games to zero in 2001... It's a small sample size on top of a small sample size and when you add up all the small sample sizes... you still have a small sample size... It's a different squad each year facing a team with a different squad. Each year has nothing to do with each other.

    The greatest teams in the world have each had a bunch of 3 games losing streaks... 5 game losing streaks... During the course of every season. When it happens in the playoffs... You are done. Thinking a manager is going to stop it by himself is... Well... it puts more creedence in the ability of managers than they deserve.

    If Gardy is a bad playoff manager... You should be able to single out the moments that he drove the train off the tracks each time. Even if you can do that... You will find a handful of posters on Twins Daily that will agree with you and a handful that will disagree with you on each train track jumping moment.

    In the end... I support a change in managers in 2013... And I do so with no inside information... I do so in the face of nearly 2,000 games worth of data over the course of his career that suggests that Gardy should remain the manager and the realization that he has had no pitching to work with for two years.

    I just think a fresh voice would be good for a rebuilding club and I think a different team would be good for Gardy.

    I would also like to point out that Hawk Harrelson Fired Tony LaRussa during a bad year. Turned out to be great for Tony and I wonder what White Sox fans think about that in hindsight.

    I'm trying my darnedest to be real. I'm supporting a change in managers and supporting the Manager at the same time. That either proves I'm conflicted beyond help or I'm trying to be balanced.

  15. #75
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,342
    Like
    227
    Liked 170 Times in 96 Posts
    Blog Entries
    9
    I would love to see a new school, Dave Martinez type replacement but I doubt the FO would seriously consider such a candidate. In that event, keep Gardy. You could do worse than him, and the FO probably would.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.