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Thread: Difference in minor league philosiphy

  1. #21
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Offensively he's been roughly league average if you include base running value. Whether that is a "good hitter" or not depends on the definition I guess.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Revere is a good hitter. He is not yet a good batter.

  3. #23
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    I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jimbo92107's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, the knee injury to Roberts completely blows your comparison. I'm not saying you're wrong about your overall point, but a bad knee will definitely keep a guy from moving up, in any organization.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jimbo92107's Avatar
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    The Twins minor league teams are missing something other than their promotion policy. What they should be teaching is an attitude of hammer down, full speed aggressive baseball.

    I'm talking about pushing the envelop beyond sound limits, then learning how to pull back just enough to win. That means stealing bases a lot more, which means taking chances and at first getting thrown out, a lot. It means every pitcher works more on pick-off moves. It means your players learn more tricks. It means you go up to bat with a swing-first attitude.

    Yeah, it also means your guys will get struck out and thrown out a lot more, at first. But it's better for a player to learn to tone down aggression than to ramp it up later in their career. Right now the Twins minor league system is producing lots of meticulously coached, very careful, overly passive ball players.

    Joe Mauer is the perfect example of what they were trying to achieve. Mauer never gets mad, hardly ever swings at pitches outside the zone, is squeaky clean, and sets a standard that is practically impossible for a typical human. He's like a baseball computer out there, and every move he makes is done correctly.

    Tell you what, I liked A.J. Pierzynski better. He gets dirty, he gets mad, he swears, he swings really hard. Opponents hate him and his fans love him. Thing about A.J. is, he plays the game with emotion. He's aggressive, which is fun to watch.

    I have no objection to managers like Kelly or Gardenhire as the calm captain, but that doesn't mean you want a team full of calm, calculating players. A guy like Dan Gladden wouldn't be on today's Twins very long, because he gets too emotional, and he's too aggressive. Too much like Dustin Pedroia. I guess players like that don't fit the corporate model of a team owned by bankers.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    The conversation should be less about the speed at which the organization promotes and more about the lack of talent we have had in the system. The past 10 or so years I would say, we haven't signed (latin) or drafted anyone worth promoting through the system at a rapid pace. The jury is still out on Arcia, Hicks, Sano and others signed recently. But after Kubel, there really was no one that we drafted that panned out. This may be the chicken or the egg argument, but I think the front office should be hammered more for drafting poorly, than developing poorly.

  7. #27
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    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

    The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.

  9. #29
    There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation.
    What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex.
    MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post

    while Revere has an interesting skillset, he's not a good hitter overall.
    If Revere isn't a good hitter... The list of good hitters gets pretty tiny.
    Revere is probably one of the more overrated hitters in the organization because he puts up a good average. This doesn't mean he's a good hitter and certainly it doesn't mean he's a good hitter overall. Among qualified CF, he's 5th in average but that's about as good as it gets. Despite 5th in average, he's 10th in OBP, bottom 4 is SLG and wOBA, and has an OPS below .700.

    While I like Revere as a player and, as mentioned, has some other tools that give him value, I don't think he should really be held up as a shining example of the hitters the Twins minor league produces.
    Last edited by Alex; 09-13-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)
    Again, that's not quite true either. Liriano dominated at 22, Mauer was handed the starting gig at 21 and, outside of the injury, was good. Garza was up at 22 for good. Santana was a 2.5 WAR relief pitcher at 23. Many of our players were called up young (22-23) but didn't start clicking until 23-25 but that doesn't seem that unusual to me. Most teams have that. Just a quick look at the White Sox top 9 and you see that most of their principal guys didn't break out until 25 or so. AJ (24), Konerko (23), Beckham (still waiting), Ramirez (25), Youk (27), Viciedo (still waiting), De Aza (28), Rios (25), Dunn (21). Compared to the the Twins - Mauer (22), Morneau (25), Casilla (still waiting), Dozier (still waiting), Plouffe (26), Willingham (27), Span (24), Revere (24), Doumit (24).

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation.
    What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex.
    MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.
    Levi Michael puts a huge dagger in your point. It had been over a decade since the Twins took a college bat near that high.

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)
    Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)
    Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.
    The recent statistic for slowness may be indisputable, but the reason is disputable. Are they poor at developing prospects or are they poor at picking prospect?. The latter would account for the slow development times. True talent will rise, see Arcia as the best recent example. You cite Revere and Pamalee's rise. Mauer rose quickly as have others. Talent will rise through the Twin's system, they just have to do a better job of picking it. The last draft had plenty of players shuffled up a level.
    Last edited by old nurse; 09-14-2012 at 01:45 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)
    Yep. Repeat seasons at Beloit and New Britain are the big killers besides being slow as hell to promote to Beloit in the first place. Arcia's trajectory is great, though. Benson and Parmelee were ok, Hicks is good, and Revere's was a forced move (and a mistake in 2011, certainly). Again, as I have said a bunch of times, there was a study of minor league PAs and IPs and through 2010 the Twins were the slowest promoters in baseball for position players and top 3-4 in slowness for pitchers. This has changed somewhat thanks to Revere and even Parmelee, but it remains true that something is just off. Getting legitimate prospects up at 25 or higher for the first time is a WASTE of time, namely the 23-25 years.
    The recent statistic for slowness may be indisputable, but the reason is disputable. Are they poor at developing prospects or are they poor at picking prospect?. The latter would account for the slow development times. True talent will rise, see Arcia as the best recent example. You cite Revere and Pamalee's rise. Mauer rose quickly as have others. Talent will rise through the Twin's system, they just have to do a better job of picking it. The last draft had plenty of players shuffled up a level.
    There's a third reason for the slowness thing - I think the report was by hardball times - the Twins don't give up on prospects and don't spend on free agents. So a guy like Tommy Watkins will end up getting a cup of coffee at 27 instead of the Twins signing a free agent to replace Koskie. The Twins also didn't give up on high draft picks like Span and Plouffe long after their fan base did.

  17. #37
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    I have yet to see any compelling reason why the Twins should promote faster in general. The only reasons given so far seem to be: one, an individual predilection to pushing players or two, slow promotion stunts growth but there was no evidence accompanying this claim so really this seems to circle back to point one, predilection. The way baseball is setup right now there doesn't seem to be much advantage to pushing most players quickly to the majors. You're going to get 6 years of control whether that is 23-29 or 25-31 years old.

  18. #38
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    Totally Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.
    And, this is the one of the biggest failures of this team in the past 10 years. We have had high end prospects that have never added real value that we could have dealt for quality veterans. And, the value of making those deals is that trading prospects is a highly leveraged trading strategies. For example, by dealing a handful of prospects you can get a pitcher like Johann Santana. You just have to be willing to pay him.

    Next, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the Twins simply are not able to pull the plug and switch to rebuilding mode. They can't without removing Gardenhire and his staff because they are not able to work with young players, and that might be the hold up. I appreciate loyalty, but when you are amongst the worst 3-4 teams in baseball two years in a row you need to be rebuilding.

    Finally, another problem with the Twins minor league organization is a lack of a Short A minor league team. Instead, we send almost all of our college draftees to Elizabethton. This creates a stacked team and exciting league championships, but creates a log jam of this talent in the minors. From Elizabethton they are all going to Beloit, which means the 19 year old HS players like Hudson Boyd and Harrison are now mixed in with a large clump of college players. IF the Twins sent the bulk of the college players to a short season A team that would leave more innings/ABs to the players in Rookie+ that needs them.

    Then, the top half of the short-season A team would move to Ft Myers instead of Beloit combined with the players that move from Beloit to Ft Myers. That moves them up one year faster than the normal TWins progress. And, while some will fail in this transition, that is not the point, and in fact, that failure is to teh Twins advantage. That is, instead of progressing through the minors at a leisurley pace and then fizzling in AA or AAA, they fizzle two or three years ealier in A+.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

    The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.
    Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Triple-A Thegrin's Avatar
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    Don't ignore the Twins draft position. The Twins don't get top 10 draft picks, most years. If one of their prospects advances fast, it means many other teams passed on that player, for some reason. So the Twins have tried to compensate by taking Sano, Kepler, Hughes, Hendriks etc from outside the USA. Look at Gibson. Teams shied away from picking him because of fear of arm problems. Where did he spend 2012 ? on the DL.

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