Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 31 of 31

Thread: Why Isn't Tony Oliva in the HOF?

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
    Posts
    8,685
    Like
    2,656
    Liked 3,308 Times in 1,755 Posts
    Blog Entries
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    In Tony's prime yrs (64-71), his average yr was 147gms .313/.360/.507 89runs 35doubles 6triples 22HR 90RBI 63k 41bb
    Pretty solid all star yrs, but just dont think those numbers scream HOF, but I hope he gets it. Defintatly robbed by the injury
    Really? I think that's pretty elite.
    Particularly in a pitcher's era.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    240
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    In Tony's prime yrs (64-71), his average yr was 147gms .313/.360/.507 89runs 35doubles 6triples 22HR 90RBI 63k 41bb
    Pretty solid all star yrs, but just dont think those numbers scream HOF, but I hope he gets it. Defintatly robbed by the injury
    If we adjust simply for league averages, here is Tony's batting average if he played 2004-2011:

    Year Rank BA Pts
    Year Rank Adj BA Pts

    1964 1 .323 6
    2004 2 .353 -19
    .247/.270
    1965 1 .321 9
    2005 1 .355 24
    .242/.268
    1966 2 .307 -9
    2006 1 .351 4
    .240/.275
    1967 8 .289 -37
    2007 5 .332 -31
    .236/.271
    1968 3 .289 -12
    2008 1 .336 8
    .230/.268
    1969 2 .309 -23
    2009 3 .335 -30
    .246/.267
    1970 3 .325 -4
    2010 2 .338 -21
    .250/.260
    1971 1 .337 6
    2011 1 .352 8
    .247/.258
    Total
    .313



    .344


    Note that he would have won 4 batting titles instead of 3, taking 2 away from Mauer. What do these numbers scream?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    996
    Like
    197
    Liked 222 Times in 97 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    In Tony's prime yrs (64-71), his average yr was 147gms .313/.360/.507 89runs 35doubles 6triples 22HR 90RBI 63k 41bb
    Pretty solid all star yrs, but just dont think those numbers scream HOF, but I hope he gets it. Defintatly robbed by the injury
    If we adjust simply for league averages, here is Tony's batting average if he played 2004-2011:

    Year Rank BA Pts
    Year Rank Adj BA Pts

    1964 1 .323 6
    2004 2 .353 -19
    .247/.270
    1965 1 .321 9
    2005 1 .355 24
    .242/.268
    1966 2 .307 -9
    2006 1 .351 4
    .240/.275
    1967 8 .289 -37
    2007 5 .332 -31
    .236/.271
    1968 3 .289 -12
    2008 1 .336 8
    .230/.268
    1969 2 .309 -23
    2009 3 .335 -30
    .246/.267
    1970 3 .325 -4
    2010 2 .338 -21
    .250/.260
    1971 1 .337 6
    2011 1 .352 8
    .247/.258
    Total
    .313



    .344


    Note that he would have won 4 batting titles instead of 3, taking 2 away from Mauer. What do these numbers scream?

    I'm not arguing one way or the other for Oliva's HOF candidacy, but I absolutely hate league adjusted numbers. You can do that for any player of that era and they suddenly look amazing offensively. The numbers are what they are and shouldn't need adjusting.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    In Tony's prime yrs (64-71), his average yr was 147gms .313/.360/.507 89runs 35doubles 6triples 22HR 90RBI 63k 41bb
    Pretty solid all star yrs, but just dont think those numbers scream HOF, but I hope he gets it. Defintatly robbed by the injury
    Really? I think that's pretty elite.
    Dont get me wrong, I would love Tony to make it as those 8 years are very good. However they just arent HOF as you need more than 8yrs of very good/great play. Look at other OFs during his era that dwarfed those numbers (esp during their peak 8 yrs) that did make it. To me, Tony is more in the Roger Maris/Vada Pinson/Dick Allen type of player .....great player during his era who didnt have the extended success to be a HOF. Nothing wrong with that. He is one of the very greatest players NOT to make the HOF tho.
    What I dont get is how voters have him at his peak of 47% but only 30% the next year. How did he get worse. IMO, if a player makes a voters card he should HAVE to be on their card untill his eligibility is over.
    Dont get me started tho as there are several players (older generation) who I dont believe deserve it when looking back.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    240
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    I'm not arguing one way or the other for Oliva's HOF candidacy, but I absolutely hate league adjusted numbers. You can do that for any player of that era and they suddenly look amazing offensively. The numbers are what they are and shouldn't need adjusting.
    You absolutely hate league adjusted numbers? They are not meant to harm your children or take money out of your pocket. They are meant to provide perspective.

    A little perspective, for instance... in 1930, 44 players qualified for the batting championship in the National League. 33 of those hit .303 or higher. The average BA among those 44 was .325. In 1968, the AL league batting average was .230. Only one player hit over .300... Carl Yastrzemski hit .301 to win the title. Surely, you are not arguing that the 33 guys who hit over .303 in the National League in 1930 were better than Yaz, Oliva, and every other player in the 1968 American League?

    Tony Oliva and Carl Yastrzemski were every bit as good as the best players from both 1930 and 2012. You would never know it from their stat lines though. Unless you look a little deeper than the surface.

    As for your statement that any player of that era suddenly looks amazing, well, those that were amazing in their day look amazing. Those that were mediocre still look mediocre... only by today's standards rather than 1968's.

    Making these adjustments didn't suddenly make Oliva look like he won the batting title every year. His rank for each year is, imo, remarkably stable with the differences being accounted for by individual performances such as Ichiro hitting .372 in 2004, eclipsing Tony's batting title season of 1964.

    There is no perfect way to compare eras but ignoring the differences is not an option.

  6. #26
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
    Posts
    4,094
    Like
    1,826
    Liked 1,299 Times in 525 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    The numbers are what they are and shouldn't need adjusting.
    Is a .900 OPS the same in Colorado as it is in San Diego?
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  7. #27
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    240
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    To me, Tony is more in the Roger Maris/Vada Pinson/Dick Allen type of player .....great player during his era who didnt have the extended success to be a HOF. Nothing wrong with that. He is one of the very greatest players NOT to make the HOF tho.
    What I dont get is how voters have him at his peak of 47% but only 30% the next year. How did he get worse. IMO, if a player makes a voters card he should HAVE to be on their card untill his eligibility is over.
    Dont get me started tho as there are several players (older generation) who I dont believe deserve it when looking back.
    Tony is not a slam dunk and the reason is longevity. But, as you imply, there are a lot of players in the HOF who are not slam dunks. Most of them, in fact. If I were to go through them, I would expect maybe 50 or 60 out of about 300 that are slam dunks. Even among those there will be dissenters. Six guys didn't vote for Ty Cobb and I think fifteen or so did not vote for Babe Ruth. Joe DiMaggio didn't make it until his third try. But that leaves about 75% of them that are marginal.

    You mention Dick Allen. Ignoring Joe Jackson and Pete Rose, I think that Dick Allen is the single most deserving player not in the HOF. I think Tony Oliva is right behind him. I think they are both discounted due to their eras. That is unfortunate.

  8. #28
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
    Posts
    4,094
    Like
    1,826
    Liked 1,299 Times in 525 Posts
    Dick Allen also got the anti-Puckett media treatment.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  9. #29
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    240
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Dick Allen also got the anti-Puckett media treatment.
    Right. I can't help giving him extra credit for that. I'd bet he doesn't give a rat's rear that he isn't in the HOF either. I would give him extra credit for that too.

  10. #30
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
    Posts
    3,588
    Like
    199
    Liked 540 Times in 350 Posts
    Blog Entries
    33
    Too short of a career, numbers depressed in a pitching-rich era, and playing in Flyoverville, Tony woulda/shoulda/coulda been in the Hall, but all of those factors work against him. He was a great all-around player--surprising speed, rocket arm--who always could hit, even on one leg.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    996
    Like
    197
    Liked 222 Times in 97 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    The numbers are what they are and shouldn't need adjusting.
    Is a .900 OPS the same in Colorado as it is in San Diego?
    We certainly don't need a formula to figure out what his numbers would be if this, that, and the other thing.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.