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Thread: Pavano Done

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

    Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
    Baker
    Wimmers
    Capps
    Pavano
    Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

    Here are some fun numbers.

    The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
    (in $MM)

    Pavano 8.5
    Baker 6.5
    Liriano 5.5
    Blackburn 4.75
    Capps 4.5
    Marquis 3
    Perkins 1.55
    Burton .75
    Zumaya .85
    3 at .5

    Total $37.4 M

    $ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

    $ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

    Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

    So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?
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    twitter: @thrylos98

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

    Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
    Baker
    Wimmers
    Capps
    Pavano
    Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

    Here are some fun numbers.

    The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
    (in $MM)

    Pavano 8.5
    Baker 6.5
    Liriano 5.5
    Blackburn 4.75
    Capps 4.5
    Marquis 3
    Perkins 1.55
    Burton .75
    Zumaya .85
    3 at .5

    Total $37.4 M

    $ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

    $ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

    Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

    So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?
    Stop writing so quickly, Ryan can't assess the situation that fast.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I think that the medical staff screwed up big time this season with (Chronologically) :

    Zumaya (evaluation when they signed him)
    Baker
    Wimmers
    Capps
    Pavano
    Plouffe (I hope I am wrong, but, again...)

    Here are some fun numbers.

    The cost of the Twins' 12 highest paid pitchers this February:
    (in $MM)

    Pavano 8.5
    Baker 6.5
    Liriano 5.5
    Blackburn 4.75
    Capps 4.5
    Marquis 3
    Perkins 1.55
    Burton .75
    Zumaya .85
    3 at .5

    Total $37.4 M

    $ wasted for medical reasons: 20.35 or 54.4%

    $ wasted for bad contracts (Blackburn and Marquis) : 7.75 or 20.7 %

    Total Money wasted for medical reasons and bad contracts about 75%

    So these Twins threw away 3/4 of what they spend for their 2012 pitching staff... How can a team not suck if they do that?
    Does TR get a Good Stewardship Conduct Medal for the ~$2M saved by dumping Liriano?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Does TR get a Good Stewardship Conduct Medal for the ~$2M saved by dumping Liriano?
    The Pohlad wallet salutes this post.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Makes me wonder about Slowey and his wrist injury. He was never the same after he came back, how has Hardy been doing he was injured all the time, isn't that one of the reasons he had to go? Way way to many of these injury screw ups, imo.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.
    Where are all those folks who kept insisting all year that Ryan needs to be given more time to fully assess the situation?

    Answer: Running for the tall grass...
    I'm still here, I believe Ryan will get this organization all on the same page and moving forward by next year. I'm certainly not going to say everything has gone according to plan and that hasn't burned some goodwill but I'm willing to wait until next year to see how he reacts, not how he overreacts.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Too bad. I liked Pavano. And this certainly doesn't look good for the medical staff. We'll see what Ryan says about it.
    Where are all those folks who kept insisting all year that Ryan needs to be given more time to fully assess the situation?

    Answer: Running for the tall grass...
    I'm still here, I believe Ryan will get this organization all on the same page and moving forward by next year. I'm certainly not going to say everything has gone according to plan and that hasn't burned some goodwill but I'm willing to wait until next year to see how he reacts, not how he overreacts.
    With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

    There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?
    If I was them I would do both, every time. In high school I had shoulder/lat weakness that cause me to drop my elbow and it messed with my elbow. I also broke my hand and had hand/wrist weakness. The doctor said I was good and didn't need any rehab, so most any high school senior would do, I went out and started throwing, my first bullpen session I had a very sharp pain in my shoulder and I was done for the year because I was overcompensating for my wrist with my shoulder.

    Moral of the story: it is a decent idea to check both on the chance one caused the other. In this case maybe the bruise caused the shoulder or throwing with shoulder issues caused the bruise.

  9. #29
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    Too bad. Had Pavano been healthy and had even an average season by his standards, it could have made a big difference.

    I'm going to refrain from the joining the chorus of critics dumping on the Twins medical staff. I'm not a doctor, and I don't see what they do every day. So I don't feel as though I have the expertise or knowledge of what they do to make a judgment about their performance. I do know that their job is not easy. There's often not a clear best course of action, and players aren't always entirely honest and forthcoming.

    I'm not trying to defend them, maybe they really are awful at what they do.

    I just don't know enough about it to play armchair medical expert. Others obviously feel differently, and that's fine.

    It's a common phenomenon on issues of the day. Like when there's a major US Supreme Court case and suddenly everyone and their grandmother is a constitutional law scholar. Or when we're involved in armed conflict, anyone who has ever served in the military, known anyone who has served in the military, or seen both Platoon and Saving Private Ryan is apparently qualified to appear on TV with the phrase "military expert" next to their name.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?
    I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

    As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwestbrock View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

    There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?
    If I was them I would do both, every time. In high school I had shoulder/lat weakness that cause me to drop my elbow and it messed with my elbow. I also broke my hand and had hand/wrist weakness. The doctor said I was good and didn't need any rehab, so most any high school senior would do, I went out and started throwing, my first bullpen session I had a very sharp pain in my shoulder and I was done for the year because I was overcompensating for my wrist with my shoulder.

    Moral of the story: it is a decent idea to check both on the chance one caused the other. In this case maybe the bruise caused the shoulder or throwing with shoulder issues caused the bruise.
    Apparently the Twins Medical Staff might want to get current in the field and go browse through the "Dizzy Dean Injury Cascade" syndrome, peculiar to pitchers. It's only been common knowledge now, for what...? 70 years or so.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    One other item to think about. At one point in July, there were 20 pitchers on the DL from Beloit-up to the Major league Club.

    Is this Organization capable of keeping their Arms healthy??

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?
    I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

    As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.
    I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.

  14. #34
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?
    I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

    As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.
    I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.
    So the strength and conditioning coaches have to go too? Or are they part of the medical staff? Holy night of the long knives, part deux.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    You do not have to be a Doctor to realize that the Medical Staff is misdiagnosing injures OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

  16. #36
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    I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
    I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate, why would/should the medical staff examine the elbow when the player is complaining about a shoulder issue?

    There is a major difference in location between rotator cuff weakness and a bruised humorous. Also if Pavano has had it before, couldn't have brought up his opinions with the doctors?
    The humerus bone is the upper arm bone. It connects the elbow and shoulder.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    With regards to the pitching staff, I'm hard-pressed in saying that anything has gone according to plan. The closest I can come to finding was Jared Burton--- But was Burton a plan? Or more of a prayer?
    I think the team did a pretty good job fixing/restocking the bullpen, honestly. Coming into the season that was everyone's nightmare. Before the season there wasn't a lot of concern over the starting pitching (some but it fell behind the bullpen and lineup).

    As to the medical staff, I'm interested in what Ryan says about it. I'm not an expert so I won't accuse them of screwing things up (others are doing that enough anyway). But we certainly aren't the only team going ballistic over our medical staff - KC and Boston are right there with us.
    I come down on the side of Nolan Ryan, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and others. It comes down to training for proper mechanics, developing arm strength by throwing more, not less and regular lower body anaerobic conditioning.
    So the strength and conditioning coaches have to go too? Or are they part of the medical staff? Holy night of the long knives, part deux.
    I think it's fair to say they are vitally interlinked, especially concerning injury avoidance/prevention and rehab/maintanence once injury has occurred.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Highabove View Post
    You do not have to be a Doctor to realize that the Medical Staff is misdiagnosing injures OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!
    This is true. And also annoying, and beyond "getting to be" a pattern. It never made the news, but when Mauer wrecked his knee as a rookie, the Twins med staff completely botched his rehab too. The Mauers didn't want to make it public for their own (I'm sure good) reasons. I only know this because one of my sisters is friends w/Theresa, and one of my nephews (one of her kids) is friends/played b-ball with Joe at Cretin...

    The Twins, IMO, really need to reevaluate their entire med staff...

  20. #40
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoCal View Post
    I suspect that a player making millions of dollars a year - such as Pavano, or Span - probably has his own personal trainer, and a very attentive agent. I also imagine that the final decision on playing, and even medical procedures, lies with the player and agent first, with consultation with the medical staff and outside doctors. Judging by other player's around baseball (Stephen Drew, Carl Crawford, David Ortiz) who have had injury issues that become controversial, I think that a team's medical staff is in a very difficult position mediating between competing interests. The Twins caution around injuries and roster decisions probably is strongly influenced by agents looking out for their clients' - and their own - economic interests.
    I also think there is a story here which could use some research.......
    Nice first post. As much as the Twins medical staff seems to leave much to be desired; it's hard for me to believe that their culpability is so obvious or so legitimate, and that the Twins would be so willfully ignorant and stubborn to stick with an ineffective staff out of some myopic notion of loyalty.

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