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Thread: Orioles rushing Machado?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Triple-A whydidnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    So whydidnt on a crappy Twins forum says he's swinging at balls outside the zone even though multiply reports from people say he's just been feed a steady diet of breaking balls and is still learned to stay back on them. Breaking news you can still strike out on pitches in the zone.

    You keep him at Beloit cause for all his prodigious, he's not Harper, Trout or Machado. He's not as good as those guys and the numbers say so. If he still killing low-A I would say promote him, but he's having issues with contact their. NTM what's the point of promoting him and getting him to the majors to start his arb clock for a bad team?
    Except he's 10th in the league in OPS despite having 140+ more plate appearances than any of the others in the top 10, and he has been walked 18 more times than the next nearest guy in the league, I guess those walks are a result of pitchers pounding the strike zone constantly when pitching to him. He's NOT overmatched right now. He's doing very well. I'm not suggesting that he's ready for the majors, just that moving him up a level now would probably be the right thing for his development. What's the benefit to having him walk 15% of the time he's at the plate? How does that help his development?

    Machado's OPS at a similar level in 2011 was lower than Sano's, yet he was promoted to A+ that same year, after only 170 PA, so he is a good comparable. The arbitration clock won't start when he reaches Ft. Myers, either. The Twins have a history of slowly promoting guys in their system, with only a few exceptions, and it looks like Sano isn't going to be one of those exceptions.

    As we consider the Twins decisions at promoting players, I think we need to look at how poorly they have been at developing players over the last 5 years before we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to their decisions. The recent track record sucks and so I am disappointed when it seems to be "business as usual". I may jump off a bridge if I hear the Twins are working with Sano on going the other way...

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    Except he's 10th in the league in OPS despite having 140+ more plate appearances than any of the others in the top 10, and he has been walked 18 more times than the next nearest guy in the league, I guess those walks are a result of pitchers pounding the strike zone constantly when pitching to him. He's NOT overmatched right now. He's doing very well. I'm not suggesting that he's ready for the majors, just that moving him up a level now would probably be the right thing for his development. What's the benefit to having him walk 15% of the time he's at the plate? How does that help his development?
    I'm not saying he's overmatched, but the lack of contact is a major concern. He's doing very well for a 19 year old in full season ball, but I don't see how promoting him to Fort Myers fixes any of his issues. You keep mentioning his 15% walk rate which is fantastic, but his strike outs are a concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    Machado's OPS at a similar level in 2011 was lower than Sano's, yet he was promoted to A+ that same year, after only 170 PA, so he is a good comparable. The arbitration clock won't start when he reaches Ft. Myers, either. The Twins have a history of slowly promoting guys in their system, with only a few exceptions, and it looks like Sano isn't going to be one of those exceptions.
    First off Machado is a middle infielder (maybe 3B if he gets too big) so I don't see how mentioning his OPS in comparison to Sano's means anything. Whatever the O's wanna do with Machado is their business, hell the Mets have 19 year olds in AA. Doesn't mean it's the right gameplan. Over the last 10 years the Twins have produced Span, Morneau, Mauer, Revere, Ramos, Ploufee and a few intresting position players in the minors. Maybe that's not the sexiest list of players, but maybe the slow promotions has worked a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    As we consider the Twins decisions at promoting players, I think we need to look at how poorly they have been at developing players over the last 5 years before we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to their decisions. The recent track record sucks and so I am disappointed when it seems to be "business as usual". I may jump off a bridge if I hear the Twins are working with Sano on going the other way...

    I agree with you that the Twins haven't developed players as well as they should over the last 5 years, but I don't see how pushing kids who clearly still are rough around the edges fixes that.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Triple-A whydidnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    First off Machado is a middle infielder (maybe 3B if he gets too big) so I don't see how mentioning his OPS in comparison to Sano's means anything. Whatever the O's wanna do with Machado is their business, hell the Mets have 19 year olds in AA. Doesn't mean it's the right gameplan. Over the last 10 years the Twins have produced Span, Morneau, Mauer, Revere, Ramos, Ploufee and a few intresting position players in the minors. Maybe that's not the sexiest list of players, but maybe the slow promotions has worked a bit.
    I guess we have different views of success. For a team that has beliefs rooted in home grown talents that is an awful small list of impact players over a ten year period of time, and frankly, we've seen 2 months of decent play out of Plouffe and Revere, so I'm not ready to call either of those guys a success yet, the Twins didn't think much of Ramos and both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano? I know you were just throwing names off the top of your head and there are probably others, but really it's not a very long list if you consider we are talking 10 years of time and an organization that prides itself on building from within.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    I guess we have different views of success. For a team that has beliefs rooted in home grown talents that is an awful small list of impact players over a ten year period of time, and frankly, we've seen 2 months of decent play out of Plouffe and Revere, so I'm not ready to call either of those guys a success yet, the Twins didn't think much of Ramos and both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano? I know you were just throwing names off the top of your head and there are probably others, but really it's not a very long list if you consider we are talking 10 years of time and an organization that prides itself on building from within.
    Well maybe we should look at differently.

    Mauer, Span, Morneau, Revere, Ploufee, Garza, Perkins, Ramos, Santana (they did rebuild him once he got to MN) Cuddyer, Kubel & Baker (plus I'm sure I'm missing some guys)

    Now name me another teams that's produced that much MLB talent in the last decade? I agree that the last 5 years have sucked as far as player development, but you make it seem like every teams is pumping out All-Stars from every draft.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    I don't think listing the MLB players that have come through the Twins system is really a good example DPJ. I'm not a fan of moving some players slowly, like Arcia. On the other hand you get guys like Plouffe and Span that are marginal prospects most of the way but still have talent. You could eve0n say they were aggressive with Plouffe, he was one of the younger players in the Eastern League when he led the league in 2b! The Twins just haven't had the right talent to promote aggressive. Arcia has actually move through the system pretty quickly, despite very good talent in the entire system for the OF. I really wouldn't say the Twins are extremely slow at promotions, just they are patient. FWIW, Sano shouldn't be promoted because he hasn't played well enough and it wouldln't help him any to move to the FSL. The things he needs to work on he can do in the MWL. He would probably do just fine, but it is going to be easier to make adjustments at this level than it will in the FSL. I doubt he or Rosario get called up mid-season next year either, unless they are destroying it like Arcia did this year.

  6. #26
    While the Orioles have been one of the majors biggest jokes, after hiring Buck Schowalter...they have tried hard to win.
    They know that Machado/Bundy are the real deals & arent worried about having them master a level/having their minor league teams get to the playoffs, ala MN, but to get in the time & get to the next level to help the big club win.
    Machado is in the majors, but MN would have him in Ft Myers right now, no question IMO,....as they will Sano/Rosario next yr.
    I also am one to believe that Bryce Harper would be in High A also w/MN, as he didnt dominate in his higher minor league play, but WASH knows he was a major league talent, not a minor league filler.
    Only real frustrating part now to me isnt Sano, but Hicks/Arcia. Terry Ryan has hinted hard that Hicks (despite having to be protected this winter) wont be recalled & they want him in winter ball first. Arcia is still on the bubble for a recall ....says the organization. How much more can he do.
    If Twins want to disprove this, how about putting their best prospects in AAA instead of Clete Thomas/Wilkin Ramirez etc...guys who will be released after the next 25 AAA gms.

  7. #27
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    "both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano?"

    Mauer spent his first full minor league season in Low A. At basically the same age, so will Sano. Next year, Sano could move up a level or two, like Mauer did. Or, he could move at the Revere pace and move up one step at a time. Either is fine. At the end of the day, it's not about getting them there quickly... it's about them being ready when they get there. They've moved Arcia pretty quickly. Hicks was moved slowly early, and clearly he needed that. There is no booklet that says exactly how long a player should take to advance.

    Why should Hicks come up for September? I get it, if he's going to play, like Benson and Parmelee and Tosoni did last year. But if Willingham, Span and Revere are all there and playing, then he might as well go play elsewhere. They'll add him to the 40 man roster either way.

    Also, there is a month left in the season. New Britain is very near a playoff spot, and Rochester is somehow finding themselves back into the playoff conversation. The Twins have shown a willingness to call guys up from AA if they're playing well, so why mess things up for those teams? No one's development is being stalled.

  8. #28
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Also, this is where you have to trust he scouts and coaching staffs and such... although Machado's AA numbers were not that great, he's come up and had 2 hits in his first game and homered tonight.

  9. #29
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Sorry! Make that TWO HR tonight for Machado.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer righty8383's Avatar
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    I don't mean to take anything away from Machado, but both those HR's tonight were total hangers.

    http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/vid...nt_id=23790027

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    I guess we have different views of success. For a team that has beliefs rooted in home grown talents that is an awful small list of impact players over a ten year period of time, and frankly, we've seen 2 months of decent play out of Plouffe and Revere, so I'm not ready to call either of those guys a success yet, the Twins didn't think much of Ramos and both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano? I know you were just throwing names off the top of your head and there are probably others, but really it's not a very long list if you consider we are talking 10 years of time and an organization that prides itself on building from within.
    Well maybe we should look at differently.

    Mauer, Span, Morneau, Revere, Ploufee, Garza, Perkins, Ramos, Santana (they did rebuild him once he got to MN) Cuddyer, Kubel & Baker (plus I'm sure I'm missing some guys)

    Now name me another teams that's produced that much MLB talent in the last decade? I agree that the last 5 years have sucked as far as player development, but you make it seem like every teams is pumping out All-Stars from every draft.
    Crain, Mijares, at lot of players traded for and developed, Liriano, Guerrier, Lohshe, Bartlette, a few more journeyman relievers like Romero come to mind Part of Ryan'ssuccess was plucking people off from other minor leagues.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Mauer spent his first full minor league season in Low A. At basically the same age, so will Sano. Next year, Sano could move up a level or two, like Mauer did. Or, he could move at the Revere pace and move up one step at a time. Either is fine. At the end of the day, it's not about getting them there quickly... it's about them being ready when they get there. They've moved Arcia pretty quickly. Hicks was moved slowly early, and clearly he needed that. There is no booklet that says exactly how long a player should take to advance.

    Why should Hicks come up for September? I get it, if he's going to play, like Benson and Parmelee and Tosoni did last year. But if Willingham, Span and Revere are all there and playing, then he might as well go play elsewhere. They'll add him to the 40 man roster either way.

    Also, there is a month left in the season. New Britain is very near a playoff spot, and Rochester is somehow finding themselves back into the playoff conversation. The Twins have shown a willingness to call guys up from AA if they're playing well, so why mess things up for those teams? No one's development is being stalled.
    Its all in personal perception.
    Twins got the benefit of the doubt for a decade on how they operated. For me, coming off the Bill Smith era, they've lost that trust from many fans & some think have been passed by many organizations in how they operate.
    Im fine with Sano/Rosario staying in Beloit as next yr they 'could' move up quickly like Arcia did & that would be fine.
    However, I dont hear of/see other teams keeping high prospects at a level so they can play in the playoffs but rather are trying to get them advanced ASAP to help the major league team....not the minor league ones.
    On Hicks (Hermann/Hermsen etc), I believe 100% in promoting guys in Sept that will either WILL be added to 40 man that winter/spent the entire yr on 40 man & deserve it. WHY?? Seein the preverbial carrott of how good the life in the majors is should give these guys the work ethic that winter/next spring to bust their ass (not that they dont anyways). Twins/Gardy have always used the excuse that there isnt enough playing time.....who said they had to play?? They can sit & watch & see HOW to act as a major leaguer/see what they have to do to be there full time. I truly believe in that.
    While service time matters, at that point I dont make the decisions on it yet.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    They usually call-up deserving players. I really don't like siding with the Twins on promoting players, because I have my gripes with them. In this case though, you can't fault them for wanting their guys to play an entire season instead of sitting on the bench. When it is their time, they call guys up. Revere, Benson, Parmelee, Span, Cuddy, Kubel, Neshek, Perkins all have come up and gotten playing time after seasons were over in the minors. I expect the same might happen this year, its just a month away still. There is really little benefit to coming up other than giving them a cup of coffee.

    I do wish they would be a little more aggressive, but you can't pick that out as a main complaint. I have a problem with the big picture, and think prospect promotions is just a small part of that. I fully expect 1 or 2 OF prospects to come up in Sept. and take away AB's from older guys to allow them to finish the season healthy (pretty much what happened last year, just not the same scale). Your big problem is there hasn't been the talent to promote. I had a big problem with how they handled Cuddy, Bartlett, Kubel, Slama. But that is because they were making excuses about keeping them down when they should have been up contributing to playoff teams. If the Twins were a playoff team now and still leaving Hendriks in AAA, I'd be pissed. However, there is little reason to if they are working on something specific in a lost season.

  14. #34
    After a solid 10 yr run, MN had grown comfortable with how to run the minor leagues/promotions & had reasonings to why they did such things. They are definately still attempting to find a comfort level now that they are one of the laughingstock teams for the past 2 yrs.
    They are trying to stay with their philosiphy (older players/younger players needed to develop) but they tried that in 93/96 & got them stuck for another 4/5 yrs. Just hope they stubbornly wont change with the times & their past 2 yrs dont turn into another decade of bad ball. They have some high level position players & hopefully they dont burn em out sitting in minors/levels too long.

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