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Thread: Reusse: It's time to end the Twins glove affair with Nishioka

  1. #21
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentMpls View Post
    Nishi didn't work out, and the main issue that none of the radio or paper media seem to dig into is what happened with the scouting
    Ding ding ding. Was saying that 1+ year ago - if the buck stops at the GM's chair then the apparent lack of due diligence on this deal was reason enough to re-assign Bill Smith, and then leave it to his replacement to decide if further re-assignments, i.e. in the scouting staff, were also called for. I don't recall hearing anything on that latter front, but maybe Ryan preferred not to hold up a particular individual for public scorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Ding ding ding. Was saying that 1+ year ago - if the buck stops at the GM's chair then the apparent lack of due diligence on this deal was reason enough to re-assign Bill Smith, and then leave it to his replacement to decide if further re-assignments, i.e. in the scouting staff, were also called for. I don't recall hearing anything on that latter front, but maybe Ryan preferred not to hold up a particular individual for public scorn.

    I remember hearing Smith had never actually seen Nishi play, he was just told by the team scouts that he was great and sign him. I love to know those scouts and if they still have jobs?

  3. #23
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    I don't have a problem with them trying to break into the small Japanese talent pool. It didn't work, and it's time to move on from the experiment. If Nishi retires before Spring Training next year, these last three games will make a lot more sense.

  4. #24
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    What makes me feel worse for this organziation is Nishi BABIP the Twins outta 15 million. Anyone looking at his career numbers could tell his 2010 was a fluke. I get the Twins will never been strong in advanced stats, but how the hell can anyone not involved in baseball not see it?

    The same front office can couldn't see a .400 BABIP is bad is suppose to turn this whole thing around?

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    I remember hearing Smith had never actually seen Nishi play, he was just told by the team scouts that he was great and sign him. I love to know those scouts and if they still have jobs?
    Howard Norsetter (sp?) is the Twins lead international scout. According to a LENIII postmortem last fall, he was the lead scout on the Nishioka signing, but if I remember the article correctly, at least six other scouts were consulted.

    I also want to restate my opinion that "marketing" and/or forces above Smith were not the reason for the signing. This was on the scouts, and keep in mind Smith has no scouting background, so I have to believe he went off their recommendations.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    and keep in mind Smith has no scouting background
    This is true, but he can't use it as a copout. No one has background in every aspect a GM must be responsible for, and yet the job must be done - the GM must synthesize the information that comes in. This result was bad enough that someone needed to be disciplined at the very least (and I'm no advocate of second-guessing every decision some scout makes), and there's no sign Smith was willing to do that.

    What's more, even without a scouting background, the big-money teams sniffing around and then choosing not to enter the bidding had to be a red flag for someone in Smith's position. I don't think it's second-guessing on my part to say that a successful signing like Sano was done quite differently than the signing of Nishioka.

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    What makes me feel worse for this organziation is Nishi BABIP the Twins outta 15 million. Anyone looking at his career numbers could tell his 2010 was a fluke. I get the Twins will never been strong in advanced stats, but how the hell can anyone not involved in baseball not see it?

    The same front office can couldn't see a .400 BABIP is bad is suppose to turn this whole thing around?
    His 2010 was a fluke, but its not like he was hitting .150 in the seasons before that. He still hit .300 in 2 of the 3 years prior and had about an .800 OPS before his 2010 season as well, plus showed decent pop with 27 HR in 2 seasons. Again, nothing that special, but nothing that should indicate that he couldn't produce even a .700 OPS in the majors, and this doesn't even begin to explain how god awful he is on defense.

    If I had to blame anyone for this debacle it would be the following:
    Nishioka: 50%
    Scouts: 30%
    Smith/Rest of FO: 20%

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    His 2010 was a fluke, but its not like he was hitting .150 in the seasons before that. He still hit .300 in 2 of the 3 years prior and had about an .800 OPS before his 2010 season as well, plus showed decent pop with 27 HR in 2 seasons. Again, nothing that special, but nothing that should indicate that he couldn't produce even a .700 OPS in the majors, and this doesn't even begin to explain how god awful he is on defense.

    If I had to blame anyone for this debacle it would be the following:
    Nishioka: 50%
    Scouts: 30%
    Smith/Rest of FO: 20%
    An .800 OPS in Japan is like a .650 OPS in the states.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Howard Norsetter (sp?) is the Twins lead international scout. According to a LENIII postmortem last fall, he was the lead scout on the Nishioka signing, but if I remember the article correctly, at least six other scouts were consulted.
    Is he also part of the scouts that signed guys like Sano, Rosario, Arcia?(I honestly have zero idea so I apologize if I am off base) If so, then perhaps he deserves a semi-pass on this.
    At the end of the day if Sano reaches his potential and Nishioka is a waste of 15 mil I think I can live with that.

    The most frustrating thing of the whole deal was how much we gave Nishi guaranteed, I wonder if they could have gotten him for 2 years instead of 3, but then part of me wonders if it was the Twins who wanted 3+ an option just in case Nishi turned out to be good.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    An .800 OPS in Japan is like a .650 OPS in the states.
    Do you have anything whatsoever to back that up?
    I agree that Japan is somewhere between AA/AAA, but .800 to .650 is a pretty drastic split, so drastic I think that you are just making that up.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Do you have anything whatsoever to back that up?
    I agree that Japan is somewhere between AA/AAA, but .800 to .650 is a pretty drastic split, so drastic I think that you are just making that up.
    Cause no player from Japan, even the few that succeed like Matsui or Ichiro produce drasticly worse numbers once they come to the states. The stadiums in Japan are smaller, worse pitching, worse fielders, balls running on turf. Matsui's career OPS in Japan was .980, in the states it's .822. Ichiro's OPS dropped over .100 points when he came to the states.

    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I also want to restate my opinion that "marketing" and/or forces above Smith were not the reason for the signing. This was on the scouts, and keep in mind Smith has no scouting background, so I have to believe he went off their recommendations.
    You got some kind of inside knowledge on this?

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Cause no player from Japan, even the few that succeed like Matsui or Ichiro produce drasticly worse numbers once they come to the states. The stadiums in Japan are smaller, worse pitching, worse fielders, balls running on turf. Matsui's career OPS in Japan was .980, in the states it's .822. Ichiro's OPS dropped over .100 points when he came to the states.



    You got some kind of inside knowledge on this?
    I still think the automatic assumption of "he was going to lose .150 no matter what" is a bit aggresive. I'd argue that a .100 point drop could/should be expected from a slap hitter like Nishioka.

    If he ended up being a .700 hitter with good MI defense he still would have been an asset, this is what the team was thinking when they signed him as sort of a worst case scenario. Obviously they felt he could do much better, but the worst case scenario ended up being a nightmare that nobody could have predicted.

    Seriously, even in the old BYTO threads people were against the signing because it was giving Hardy the boot , not because they predicted he would be one of the worst players in the history of the franchise.

  13. #33
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    Absolutely no one realistically believes the Twins brought Nishi up to deflect attention from other problems. No one, not even thrylos. But thrylos doesn't neccessarily express something because he believes it. Truth is inconsequential in his agenda.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    If he ended up being a .700 hitter with good MI defense he still would have been an asset, this is what the team was thinking when they signed him as sort of a worst case scenario. Obviously they felt he could do much better, but the worst case scenario ended up being a nightmare that nobody could have predicted.
    The Twins had a known .700 OPS SS with good MI defense and they gave him away for nothing.

    Actually quite a few people predicted he's be very very bad, it's not like the history of Japs coming to states is littered with star players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    An .800 OPS in Japan is like a .650 OPS in the states.
    I second that...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    The Twins had a known .700 OPS SS with good MI defense and they gave him away for nothing.

    Actually quite a few people predicted he's be very very bad, it's not like the history of Japs coming to states is littered with star players.
    This, to me, was the bigger issue, but Gardy wanted his speed guys (whatever that means, as he never sends them on the bases)... I'll go a step further to note that a .700 OPS out of Hardy was more likely the floor than the ceiling, and we knew that back then as the guy broke an .800 OPS in the second half once his wrist got better... all while playing with elite defense.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Feel free to get off your soapbox on this non existent issue anytime now. Nobody has said anything offensive regarding Nishioka. People saying "he should be sent back to Japan" isn't racist/inappropriate in the least, and "time to say sayonara to nishi" isn't bad either.
    No soapbox here Dave, just backed up what another person said because I agreed with them. A third person validated my opinion after that, so clearly I am not the only person that has been taken back by a few comments. Sorry if you feel differently, we all can have different opinions, which is one of the reasons I enjoy coming to this site so much.

    Saying someone should be sent back to the county they came from, in certain situations is not a bad thing. What I should have said is that when people use stereotypes or say things like "he should go back to Japan" from a point of anger or hate, then it becomes offensive (at least to me). I am sorry if you don't agree with that, and I can assure you that I am not simply spouting off random nonsensical issues just to get attention. I have had personal experiences where people have told me to "go back to my country" and seeing it on here made me remember how terrible I felt at the time.

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauerzy4Prez View Post
    No soapbox here Dave, just backed up what another person said because I agreed with them. A third person validated my opinion after that, so clearly I am not the only person that has been taken back by a few comments. Sorry if you feel differently, we all can have different opinions, which is one of the reasons I enjoy coming to this site so much.

    Saying someone should be sent back to the county they came from, in certain situations is not a bad thing. What I should have said is that when people use stereotypes or say things like "he should go back to Japan" from a point of anger or hate, then it becomes offensive (at least to me). I am sorry if you don't agree with that, and I can assure you that I am not simply spouting off random nonsensical issues just to get attention. I have had personal experiences where people have told me to "go back to my country" and seeing it on here made me remember how terrible I felt at the time.
    When people are saying he should go back to Japan they aren't saying it in a "your not good enough for this country", rather a "if he goes back to Japan he can no longer be a burden on this ballclub"

    I guess it could be said more PC, but honestly I don't think most people were really offended by that.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauerzy4Prez View Post
    No soapbox here Dave, just backed up what another person said because I agreed with them. A third person validated my opinion after that, so clearly I am not the only person that has been taken back by a few comments. Sorry if you feel differently, we all can have different opinions, which is one of the reasons I enjoy coming to this site so much.

    Saying someone should be sent back to the county they came from, in certain situations is not a bad thing. What I should have said is that when people use stereotypes or say things like "he should go back to Japan" from a point of anger or hate, then it becomes offensive (at least to me). I am sorry if you don't agree with that, and I can assure you that I am not simply spouting off random nonsensical issues just to get attention. I have had personal experiences where people have told me to "go back to my country" and seeing it on here made me remember how terrible I felt at the time.
    ---I'll back that up as well. It's not everyone, and it's not always blatant, but there is undoubtedly a racial tinge to some of what's been hurled at him.

    And it's well beyond the "your kind don't belong here" undertones of the demand that he go back to where he came from.

    I've seen him referred to as a "Jap", which many consider to be a derogatory term, and a "sh***ty Asian fielder".

    I never saw any of our Latin players referred to as 'spics', Nor do I recall references to Jeff Gray as a "sh***ty white pitcher" or Rondell White as a "sh****ty black hitter" during their struggles. The gratuitous racial references are apparently reserved for Nishi.

    The more obvious examples were the calls for him to be sent on a kamikaze mission and the talk of him committing seppuku. If we had a muslim player who had a couple of bad games, would it be OK to call for him to fly a plane into a building?

    I understand ripping him for his play. I will never understand the need to add a side of bigotry with it.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---I'll back that up as well. It's not everyone, and it's not always blatant, but there is undoubtedly a racial tinge to some of what's been hurled at him.

    And it's well beyond the "your kind don't belong here" undertones of the demand that he go back to where he came from.

    I've seen him referred to as a "Jap", which many consider to be a derogatory term, and a "sh***ty Asian fielder".

    I never saw any of our Latin players referred to as 'spics', Nor do I recall references to Jeff Gray as a "sh***ty white pitcher" or Rondell White as a "sh****ty black hitter" during their struggles. The gratuitous racial references are apparently reserved for Nishi.

    The more obvious examples were the calls for him to be sent on a kamikaze mission and the talk of him committing seppuku. If we had a muslim player who had a couple of bad games, would it be OK to call for him to fly a plane into a building?

    I understand ripping him for his play. I will never understand the need to add a side of bigotry with it.
    That comment that I underlined and put in bold above is EXACTLY the comment that I read and was offended by. I am glad I wasn't the only person that took notice to it and decided to make a statement. As Dave just said, the overall rhetoric towards him is probably not coming from a place of hate or racism. But it only takes one stupid remark on here to set the tone. I get that some people may not have any experience being discriminated against, or have their character judged just because of the way they look. But some of us have, and I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy.

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