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Thread: Is it time to just release him?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Must be talking about Gardy... Finally somebody gets it.
    The decision to play Nishi is coming at levels of management above Gardy, this is straight from the top.

  2. #62
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I honestly have no idea what is going on here. Why he has a major league uniform to wear is beyond me. I'm really trying not to embellish but he plays like he's stoned out of his mind. I seriously can't discount that possibility. This is major league baseball. It's Major League Baseball. His play isn't even close to the level of Major League Baseball.

    How did the scouts miss this as badly as they did.

    If the Scouts are ranking him as a AA infielder... I think they are still missing it badly. Take his performance last year and 3 games this year and I've seen enough. Based on what I have seen... He would struggle to land a starting job at Kent State. There is nothing to showcase here... There is nothing to develop... Cut ties first thing in the morning... Eat the money and move on. No need to torture him with low level backup duties. No need to torture his teammates and Twins Fans... Just cut him and let him begin the rest of his life.

    If upper management is forcing or asking Gardy to play him. That will change tonight or there is a huge argument taking place on the phone or in person.

    Seriously... What is going on here?

  3. #63
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    The only possible justification for him still being here when Plouffe comes back is if they're trying to humiliate him into walking away. And we're only talking about $3 million next year, not $30. There's no other excuse for him not to be released within a week. It's embarrassing to watch.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I honestly have no idea what is going on here. Why he has a major league uniform to wear is beyond me. I'm really trying not to embellish but he plays like he's stoned out of his mind. I seriously can't discount that possibility. This is major league baseball. It's Major League Baseball. His play isn't even close to the level of Major League Baseball.

    How did the scouts miss this as badly as they did.

    If the Scouts are ranking him as a AA infielder... I think they are still missing it badly. Take his performance last year and 3 games this year and I've seen enough. Based on what I have seen... He would struggle to land a starting job at Kent State. There is nothing to showcase here... There is nothing to develop... Cut ties first thing in the morning... Eat the money and move on. No need to torture him with low level backup duties. No need to torture his teammates and Twins Fans... Just cut him and let him begin the rest of his life.

    If upper management is forcing or asking Gardy to play him. That will change tonight or there is a huge argument taking place on the phone or in person.

    Seriously... What is going on here?
    As previously posted, I've theorized (semi-tongue-in-cheek) that it might take the Commissioner of Baseball to take action to act in "the best interests of baseball."

  5. #65
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Somewhere, there's a Team missing a Second Baseman.


    Last edited by Highabove; 08-09-2012 at 12:26 AM.

  6. #66
    I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

    Examples:
    1. Bunting
    2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
    3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
    4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
    5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
    6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
    7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
    8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
    9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
    10. Selling at the lowest possible point
    11. Never selling at the highest possible point
    12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
    13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
    14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
    15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
    16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
    17. Not appreciating obp
    18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
    19. Not understand the importance of K/9
    20. Not understanding game theory in the least
    21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
    22. Not appreciating BA against

    I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

    Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

    not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
    dumping Ortiz (17)
    Rick Reed (19,21)
    Carl Pavano (19,21)
    Shannon Stewart (13,19)
    Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
    Craig Monroe (15)
    and you can fill in the rest...
    Delmon Young
    Matt Garza
    Jason Bartlett
    Kevin Slowey
    Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
    Wilson Ramos
    Francisco Liriano
    Matt Capps
    Tsuyoshi Nishioka
    Cory Koskie
    Johan Santana
    Hardy
    Blackburn
    Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

    I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

    Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
    Milton (to get similar back without salary)
    Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
    Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
    Willingham (very good signing)
    Span (very good long-term contract)
    Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

    I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

    Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

    They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

    So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

    "We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

    Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

    You may dump Nishioka now.
    Last edited by twinstalker; 08-09-2012 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Examples

  7. #67
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudcat14 View Post
    I would assume there's still a market for him in his homeland. Maybe they could sell him back to a Japanese team for next to nothing if they assumed his contract. He was already making that much over there before wasn't he?
    This makes a lot of sense, mudcat. I wish that someone would explain why this would not be a good solution!

  8. #68
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    From a Startribune column that was just published online by Patrick Reusse:


    "Before Wednesday's first pitch, I sent an e-mail to General Manager Terry Ryan asking for the official version of why Gardenhire had said of Nishioka, "He's here to play.''
    Ryan's response was: "I am not sure what you are looking for. It is up to Gardy to make out the lineup with the 25 players available.

    ''
    Gardenhire's public comments Wednesday did not sound like those of a manager who was playing Nishioka because he wanted to. He harrumphed his way through a Nishioka question from reporters and said he was done talking about the second baseman.It seems clear that Gardenhire was playing Nishioka in Cleveland at the behest of the front office.

    The Twins still owe him $4 million and, best guess, Ryan didn't want to write it off without taking another look.
    "

    And some still ask why many of us are demanding philosophical changes and new blood in management?

  9. #69
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Maybe the Twins are auditioning Nishi for sale to a Japanese team? I wish that someone would explain to mudcat why his idea is not a good one.

    Also, does Nishi get even a crumb of credit for hitting the sacrifice fly that plated the go ahead run against Cleveland last night?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    Maybe the Twins are auditioning Nishi for sale to a Japanese team? I wish that someone would explain to mudcat why his idea is not a good one.

    Also, does Nishi get even a crumb of credit for hitting the sacrifice fly that plated the go ahead run against Cleveland last night?
    I understand the part that they're trying to make lemonade out of a lemon. His "audition" was, and should conintue to be, taking place in Rochester. If you saw Duensing scream into his glove at the end of the 6th inning today and watched Gardy during his postgame presser, you'd understand how damaging to team morale it is, and to fan loyalty, to continue this ludicrous farce.

  11. #71
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I understand the blame being put on the scouts to some degree, but let's be honest. Nishioka still won a batting title in Japan and was considered at the very least an average fielder(he wont gold gloves-i know i know, not a huge deal, but still, many reports said he was a slick fielder), nobody could have expected he would be this putrid in the field and at the plate when he came over. At the very worst they/we all thought he would be a Punto type player with possibly a little less defense.

    I have to imagine he isn't the same player he was in Japan, at this point I'd have to think Sano would be a better 2B/SS defensively then him at this point.

    Yes, it was a very bad signing, yes our scouts dropped the ball. But at what point do you point the finger at the real person to blame? And that is Nishioka himself. The dude has no business being on a major league, AAA or AA ball field at this point. People can feel "bad" for him all they want, basically screw him, he's getting paid a lot of money and he is looking completely lost out on the diamond. He should feel bad for his play out there.

    It's a lost season anyways, so I hope that is the reason why Ryan wanted to "see what they have" one last time before kicking his ass to the curb. If this team was anywhere near contention I imagine they would have called up Escobar. Either way, I can't see Nishi lasting for more then 5 more games unless he does a complete 180 as a ball player.

  12. #72
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I understand the part that they're trying to make lemonade out of a lemon. His "audition" was, and should conintue to be, taking place in Rochester. If you saw Duensing scream into his glove at the end of the 6th inning today and watched Gardy during his postgame presser, you'd understand how damaging to team morale it is, and to fan loyalty, to continue this ludicrous farce.
    Just think of how good morale will be when they dump him!
    Also perhaps the only silver lining on this will be to open the Twins eyes and the Twins pitcher's eyes to "holy hell, we should probably start striking people out more"

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Just think of how good morale will be when they dump him!
    Also perhaps the only silver lining on this will be to open the Twins eyes and the Twins pitcher's eyes to "holy hell, we should probably start striking people out more"
    If the Twins haven't realized in 2012 that strike outs are good, I doubt a ****ty fielding Asian man is gonna change that.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by mudcat14 View Post
    I would assume there's still a market for him in his homeland. Maybe they could sell him back to a Japanese team for next to nothing if they assumed his contract. He was already making that much over there before wasn't he?
    John Shipley also mentioned that scenario in his Pioneer Press article yesterday.

    The Twins also could waive or designate Nishioka for assignment, amounting to his outright release, but that seems unnecessary because he has options and the Twins don't need a 40-man roster spot right now. Also, because he's under contract to Minnesota, the Twins could recoup some money if Nishioka decided he was done with major league baseball. For instance, he could not return to Japan next season unless a team there bought his contract from the Twins.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

    Examples:
    1. Bunting
    2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
    3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
    4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
    5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
    6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
    7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
    8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
    9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
    10. Selling at the lowest possible point
    11. Never selling at the highest possible point
    12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
    13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
    14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
    15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
    16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
    17. Not appreciating obp
    18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
    19. Not understand the importance of K/9
    20. Not understanding game theory in the least
    21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
    22. Not appreciating BA against

    I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

    Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

    not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
    dumping Ortiz (17)
    Rick Reed (19,21)
    Carl Pavano (19,21)
    Shannon Stewart (13,19)
    Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
    Craig Monroe (15)
    and you can fill in the rest...
    Delmon Young
    Matt Garza
    Jason Bartlett
    Kevin Slowey
    Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
    Wilson Ramos
    Francisco Liriano
    Matt Capps
    Tsuyoshi Nishioka
    Cory Koskie
    Johan Santana
    Hardy
    Blackburn
    Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

    I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

    Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
    Milton (to get similar back without salary)
    Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
    Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
    Willingham (very good signing)
    Span (very good long-term contract)
    Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

    I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

    Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

    They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

    So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

    "We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

    Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

    You may dump Nishioka now.
    What he said!!

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    I think the organization should be forced to admit and correct every other obvious (at the time) mistake they've made before they get to even take Nishi out of the lineup.

    Examples:
    1. Bunting
    2. Playing the infield back, then bunting
    3. Treating saves as if they're meaningful
    4. Acting as if hitting the ball to the right side is doing your job (if your job is making precious outs, i guess)
    5. Batting left handed hitters in a row (a.k.a making the Tyler Robertsons or Tony Sipps out there 3x more valuable)
    6. Celebrating making the playoffs twice
    7. Setting the bar at competing in the AL Central
    8. Failing to platoon where obvious and necessary
    9. Putting players in the "doghouse" and getting rid of them, if possible
    10. Selling at the lowest possible point
    11. Never selling at the highest possible point
    12. Not understand noise (variance is the basis for the field of statistics)
    13. Not appreciating fielding range and arms.
    14. Not understanding how to deal with players under your control, contract-wise.
    15. Thinking a player''s performance against you (versus all other info) is the truth
    16. Depending on scouts, especially those scouting Japan, in spite of statistics and measureables.
    17. Not appreciating obp
    18. Micro-managing in the playoffs, relative to the regular season
    19. Not understand the importance of K/9
    20. Not understanding game theory in the least
    21. Giving out long contracts to bad or not-worth-it players.
    22. Not appreciating BA against

    I have pretty much hated most moves made by the Twins since 2002, starting with retaining Gardenhire all these years (1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,13,17,18). You can fit most of the mistakes made by the team and organization into one of these, including:

    Restricting my criticism to guys who were on the Twins (at time of mistake) or brought in as free agents:

    not trading Jacque Jones after 2002 (8, 10, 11, 17)
    dumping Ortiz (17)
    Rick Reed (19,21)
    Carl Pavano (19,21)
    Shannon Stewart (13,19)
    Tony Batista (13, 16, 17)
    Craig Monroe (15)
    and you can fill in the rest...
    Delmon Young
    Matt Garza
    Jason Bartlett
    Kevin Slowey
    Matt Capps (definitely as a re-sign, but only one I mention also as trade return, because the bad thinking above caused you to happen)
    Wilson Ramos
    Francisco Liriano
    Matt Capps
    Tsuyoshi Nishioka
    Cory Koskie
    Johan Santana
    Hardy
    Blackburn
    Willingham (this is one for the future, since indication are the Twins will handle this wrong--his value will never be higher than it was in July)

    I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Meanwhile, here are the good things the Twins have done:

    Pierzynski (sold from a position of power, only case of ever selling high)
    Milton (to get similar back without salary)
    Guardado (back then we thought they understood "closers" were replaceable)
    Hawkins (good decision, too expensive and replaceable)
    Willingham (very good signing)
    Span (very good long-term contract)
    Doumit (good signing and re-signing)

    I'm sure I've missed some bad and good both, but most missing here are average (like the first Pavano signing after 2009 for one year). I also don't count "deals" where the Twins were basically just taking on someone else's salary, so Carlos Gomez (for Hardy) and the guy we "traded" for Rauch don't count.

    Except for the long-term signing of Stewart, post-2003 was the best period for the Twins decision-making, although it bugs me Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was when dealing (a scout recommended him after negotiations started), he got lucky there, though he already was going to get fair value in Nathan. If you would have asked my group of friends in 2003 who the Twins should go after from the Giants, they would have said Nathan and Liriano, among others...and Terry Ryan didn't know who Liriano was. That's scary. Further, the Guardado and Hawkins and Milton decisions were completely financially-based.

    They've made mistake after mistake after mistake. And they really only needed to make some good decisions in the middle of the last decade for us to have fond memories of another pennant. I've agonized each of these (bad) decisions when they occurred and somehow stayed a fan, to the point I still watch each game when they're out of it. I have season tix, though this might be it for me.

    So as far as I'm concerned, I think this organization should acknowledge each of these mistakes prior to being allowed to sit Nishioka.

    "We really don't understand statistics or game theory, especially as they pertain to baseball, the field I happen to work in. I want to apologize to the Twins Nation for our willingness to cap our efforts to improve our team (most of which would have more likely had the opposite effect, ironically) to a level of competitiveness beyond our own division, knowing we had four of the very best players in all of baseball. I, Terry Ryan, would like to personally apologize for Tony Batista in 2006, not understanding that I needed to deal Santana in 2007, and recommending maybe the most horrific of all replacements when I retired, though how in the world would I have understood that he was incompetent. He was my protege, after all. I didn't realize how overmatched I was. There are so many more specifics that I could apologize for or apologize for on behalf of Bill, but that would take far too much time. I would like to say to those people who think we had to pitch Liriano again after his 15 strikeout game that no, we didn't have to. We could have just rested him and let the bidders bid, given his next start was only a week before the deadline. Honestly it just didn't occur to us. Much like when we failed to offer a timely contract to Travis Lee. I hope you all remember the AJ trade, though."

    Okay, Terry, we accept your apology if you have actually decided to take your job seriously this time round, but your deadline decisions don't appear that you necessarily have. Still, I'm all for keeping Willingham if the best you were offered is a Daniel Corcini and nothing else of significance. Or Span if you weren't even offered that for him. Tell me that's the case, and I'll believe you.

    You may dump Nishioka now.
    wow, nice ... then there's the medical staff

  17. #77
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    Nishi should keep playing until Poffy gets back, maybe another week!

  18. #78
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer minn55441's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    Nishi should keep playing until Poffy gets back, maybe another week!
    By keeping him in the lineup, it sends the wrong message. Have we mailed in the season or are we still trying to win games?

    Play Casilla, Masty or even Butera at 2B but don't play Nishi.

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