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Thread: A Vikings forum!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    The Vikings have proven for 20 years there always proven QB's available.
    And they have what to show for it...a couple of choke jobs in NFC Championship games?

    NTM the game is different now, it's a QB driven league. The days of surrounding enough talent around a Brad Johnson or Cunningham are over.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    And they have what to show for it...a couple of choke jobs in NFC Championship games?

    NTM the game is different now, it's a QB driven league. The days of surrounding enough talent around a Brad Johnson or Cunningham are over.
    Exactly. You either have a great QB or you have no chance. Sorry, it's the sad fate of the NFL we live in.

  3. #23
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    "John Sullivan, one of the best centers in the league.." - Paul Allen

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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    That's why I think only bodily harm to Ponder can save us. Wanna flip the coin for which one of us is Tanya Harding and which is Shane Stant?
    You should be rooting for Ponder to stay healthy and just suck as he more then likely will. If he gets hurt then the fron office is just gonna give him another season and a bunch of excuses.

    I'm rooting for Ponder to stay healthy, start all 16 and make Tarvaris look like Johnny U.
    Yeah, they're going to give him 2 more years at least. Injuries would only prolong the evaluation period.
    I don't know if Ponder will be any good or not, and with this bastard remnant of the kickass offense where they refuse to throw the ball down field nobody else will know until his contract is up. I'm sure he looks awesome in practice against Viking defensive backs though.

    I have a better scenario: Ponder looks terrible first 5 games, Frazier flips out and goes to Joe Webb, who sucks equally. The rest of the year plays out with musical chairs lousy QBs, the Wilfs clean house and hire someone to hire someone to run the show.

    BTW why do you fire a coach and keep his top assistant? Who does that? (Sorry that's last years argument but still frustrating.)

  5. #25
    Senior Member Triple-A Gernzy's Avatar
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    I don't get all the hate for Ponder. He only played half of the season and he wasn't terrible! This season will be make or break for him, but at least give him a chance. You're writing him off before he can show what he can do with a full off-season under his belt.
    I bent my wookie...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gernzy View Post
    I don't get all the hate for Ponder. He only played half of the season and he wasn't terrible! This season will be make or break for him, but at least give him a chance. You're writing him off before he can show what he can do with a full off-season under his belt.
    I never thought Ponder should have been drafted as high as he was. The Vikings locked in on the QB and hell or high water they were gonna draft one even though there were better players on the board still.

    Bad pick, bad qb...I just want him to fail in spectacular fashion so the Vikings will realize he's worthless and move on.

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gernzy View Post
    I don't get all the hate for Ponder. He only played half of the season and he wasn't terrible! This season will be make or break for him, but at least give him a chance. You're writing him off before he can show what he can do with a full off-season under his belt.
    I don't get it either, yes he was a reach in the draft. But you will soon learn that people like Lev and DPJ will root against him every chance they get, just because he was a reach when they drafted him.

    Don't get me wrong, I am very skeptical with what Ponder can bring to the table, but I at least want to give him a season before I declare him a guy with no future.

  8. #28
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gernzy View Post
    I don't get all the hate for Ponder. He only played half of the season and he wasn't terrible! This season will be make or break for him, but at least give him a chance. You're writing him off before he can show what he can do with a full off-season under his belt.
    I don't get it either, yes he was a reach in the draft. But you will soon learn that people like Lev and DPJ will root against him every chance they get, just because he was a reach when they drafted him.

    Don't get me wrong, I am very skeptical with what Ponder can bring to the table, but I at least want to give him a season before I declare him a guy with no future.
    If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But this is a guy with injury problems, a questionable arm, and happy feet. I'm not encouraged. In a league this QB-driven, anything short of a stud is a waste of time.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gernzy View Post
    I don't get all the hate for Ponder. He only played half of the season and he wasn't terrible! This season will be make or break for him, but at least give him a chance. You're writing him off before he can show what he can do with a full off-season under his belt.
    I don't get it either, yes he was a reach in the draft. But you will soon learn that people like Lev and DPJ will root against him every chance they get, just because he was a reach when they drafted him.

    Don't get me wrong, I am very skeptical with what Ponder can bring to the table, but I at least want to give him a season before I declare him a guy with no future.
    If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But this is a guy with injury problems, a questionable arm, and happy feet. I'm not encouraged. In a league this QB-driven, anything short of a stud is a waste of time.
    I just don't get the point in actively saying how awful he is all the time. In reality we have no idea how he will preform, the odds are stacked against him no doubt, but he still could become a solid QB, QB's in the NFL honestly are tough to predict.

    I don't think anyone is claming that Ponder was some great pick, but at this point he is the best drafted QB we have grabbed in quite some time! Might as well give him a shot.

    The whole "you need an elite QB to win a super bowl" may not be totally correct, its just heavily weighted since Brady and Eli (who considred him elite before the playoffs last year?) have won a ton of those over the past decade.

  10. #30
    Eli is not an elite QB. I'm sorry but being good enough in close games with a great team around you does not ELITE make. Peyton is 10 times the qb that Eli could ever wish to be.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyq77 View Post
    Eli is not an elite QB. I'm sorry but being good enough in close games with a great team around you does not ELITE make. Peyton is 10 times the qb that Eli could ever wish to be.
    Eli's entire body of work might not scream elite QB in the Peyton, Brady, Breese class. But for a playoff run in 2007 and 2011 he was up there with any QB in the league. And funny how the the Giants are a medicore team while Eli is playing average QB, but then he guess crazy in the postseason and you have a Super Bowl winning team.

    Teams live and die by their QB's now a days. Hell who even cares about defense anymore, the two worst defensive teams in the league last season were the #1 seeds going into the postseason. If you don't have elite QB in this league you have no chance at winning a Super Bowl.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I would argue that Rapesligberger is not "elite" yet continues to make and win super bowls.
    You can build a super bowl caliber team around defense these days, it's just hard to do.

    Also the Ravens and 49ers were each one fluke play away from the super bowl last year as well, both have pretty ho-hum QB's. I think Ponder could become as good as an Alex Smith or Joe Flacco some day if things break right.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I would argue that Rapesligberger is not "elite" yet continues to make and win super bowls.
    You can build a super bowl caliber team around defense these days, it's just hard to do.

    Also the Ravens and 49ers were each one fluke play away from the super bowl last year as well, both have pretty ho-hum QB's. I think Ponder could become as good as an Alex Smith or Joe Flacco some day if things break right.
    The first Super Bowl I will admit that the Steelers team carried him, but the second Super Bowl Big Ben was damn good. NTM since he came back some smashing his face on the ground, Ben has been a damn good QB. Not in the Manning, Brady, Rogers class, but pretty damn good and good enough to win a Super Bowl with.

    One fluke play yes, but at the end of the day if the 49ers would have got even decent play outta Smith they would have blown the Giants away. But Smith played like crap and even a great defense can hold a team down for so long. Flacco has been a bit better then ho-hum the last couple seasons and he was great in the postseason last year. Good enough to win that game.

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Exactly, but Flacco isn't some "elite" QB, he is a good QB. Somewhere around the 10-12 range. The notion that you need a Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers, Manning type to compete in this league is incorrect.

    There is no reason if things don't break right that Ponder can't eventually get into that range as well. Of course it would help if he wasn't surrounded by the worst WR and TE corp in football...

  15. #35
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    We had to talk over to BYTO and it was broken down into two groups. At the end of the day I think we agreed on 8 QB's that you can win a Super Bowl with now.

    Group A: Brady, Rogers, Brees & the Mannings
    Group B: Big Ben, Rivers & Stafford

    Now clearly over time things will change, hell I personally think Peyton is done but I'll leave him in here for now. But could a Romo, Flacco, Ryan or Newton creep into Group B...ofcourse. But one of these 8 guys are more then likely gonna win the Super Bowl this season and it's cause they're the best QB's in the league and teams are driven by great QB play. You can compete without elite play, but you ain't winning a Super Bowl without it.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    We had to talk over to BYTO and it was broken down into two groups. At the end of the day I think we agreed on 8 QB's that you can win a Super Bowl with now.

    Group A: Brady, Rogers, Brees & the Mannings
    Group B: Big Ben, Rivers & Stafford

    Now clearly over time things will change, hell I personally think Peyton is done but I'll leave him in here for now. But could a Romo, Flacco, Ryan or Newton creep into Group B...ofcourse. But one of these 8 guys are more then likely gonna win the Super Bowl this season and it's cause they're the best QB's in the league and teams are driven by great QB play. You can compete without elite play, but you ain't winning a Super Bowl without it.

    Not sure Big Ben belongs in Group B- I'd put him a notch below. Say what you want about the Steelers' O-Line, every time I turn around I swear Ben is getting sacked. His lack of mobility and his knack for racking up minor injuries. I'll any of the other guys over him. And what about Vick? His health is a big IF, but all things being equal, I think he is as good as most of the QBs listed above.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    Never use early 1st round picks on QB's. For every Peyton Manning theres 2 Akili Smiths. Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rogers can be had without being fools.
    Rogers was a first round pick... just saying... He was considered top 10 and fell. Brees was a 2nd rounder too, not as though he was a gem found in the 7th like Brady.

  18. #38
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
    As do I. Unfortunately, we are going to be force fed the BS that he is legit and made strides in the offseason. Whatever. I would take Farve now over Ponder.
    That's why I think only bodily harm to Ponder can save us. Wanna flip the coin for which one of us is Tanya Harding and which is Shane Stant?
    Funny story about this. I ended up working with Shawn Eckhart (though he had assumed a different name) for a brief period of time until he was essentially let go for incompetence... He died not long after that and his family threatened to sue my former employer.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Huh?
    Sometimes QB's taken in the top 5 aren't very good at football for example Rick Mirer, Akili Smith, Alex Smith, JaMarcus Russle, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch. I'm sick of 35 year old's finishing there career as Vikings, but that approach is actually very logical. Drafting QB's is like drafting goalies in hockey, unless they are hall of famers or close to it they are a waste of a pick.
    Is it that they are bad at football or other things. Wasn't it Montana or Young that said that they would have been a bust had the Raiders taken them instead? A QB will often shine if the system maximizes his strengths. As well, I'd argue that a lot of guys on this list failed not because they sucked at football and no one noticed, but because they had jack squat for a line and got their bell rung so many times that they couldn't play well. To me, this is teh danger of burning the first rounder on a QB. If your line sucks, you'd better have someone take hits for your QB year 1 until you can improve it.

    I agree that you shoudl sick of 35 year olds finishing their career in MN, as am I, but getting the sexy pick without fixing the line is far more likely to yield a Tim Couch than a Matt Stafford.

  20. #40
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyq77 View Post
    Eli is not an elite QB. I'm sorry but being good enough in close games with a great team around you does not ELITE make. Peyton is 10 times the qb that Eli could ever wish to be.
    Eli's entire body of work might not scream elite QB in the Peyton, Brady, Breese class. But for a playoff run in 2007 and 2011 he was up there with any QB in the league. And funny how the the Giants are a medicore team while Eli is playing average QB, but then he guess crazy in the postseason and you have a Super Bowl winning team.

    Teams live and die by their QB's now a days. Hell who even cares about defense anymore, the two worst defensive teams in the league last season were the #1 seeds going into the postseason. If you don't have elite QB in this league you have no chance at winning a Super Bowl.
    The Giants went crazy when their defense came together. That may have helped Eli a bit, but it was that front four in particular that pushed them fringe to SB team.

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