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Thread: Money Can't Buy You ---

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    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Money Can't Buy You ---

    The Cubs, Mets, Mariners, Astros are 4 teams off the top of my head that went out and agressively spent money on their club and failed. Maybe the Marlins will join this list after their splurge this past off season. All 4 teams have gone through a lengthy cleanup and with the possible exception of the Mets... They are still cleaning up.

    Do the Twins belong on this list. Payroll shot up with the opening of Target field. The team got away from using the farm and spent for quicker answers. It did seem to be a change in philosophy. Did the Twins take their eye off the minor league ball and look for that quick fix?

    The Twins seem to be looking at possibly spending some cash just to get some pitching for 2013. Does this become a repeating cycle?
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 07-26-2012 at 11:49 PM.

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    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    The Cubs, Mets, Mariners, Astros are 4 teams off the top of my head that went out and agressively spent moneyn on their club and failed. Maybe the Marlins will join this list after their splurge this past off season. All 4 teams have gone through a lengthy cleanup and with the possible exception of the Mets... They are still cleaning up.

    Do the Twins belong on this list. Payroll shot up with the opening of Target field. The team got away from using the farm and spent for quicker answers. It did seem to be a change in philosophy. Did the Twins take their eye off the minor league ball and look for that quick fix?

    The Twins seem to be looking at possibly spending some cash just to get some pitching for 2013. Does this become a repeating cycle?
    The Twins' minor league system has been garbage for a lot longer than two years. The payroll is irrelevant.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer J-Dog Dungan's Avatar
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    Their system hasn't been garbage for too long, they have just had too many injuries to too many pitching prospects to have a good supply line up to the Bigs

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    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    The Astros? The Astros have had a payroll over $90m three times in their history, and not since 2010. The highest payroll in team history was $102m in 2009, coming off a year in which they won 86 games.

    Seattle has had a payroll over $100m only twice in team history, and not since 2008, coming off a year in which they won 88 games. Their 2012 payroll is less than their payroll was in 2003.

    Neither of these teams have "aggressively spent money" in recent history.

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    The Twins topping $100 million next season, due to spending on pitching, would vastly improve the team. I am not sure how it became the case that so many people around here have ignored the importance of starting pitching. With decent starting pitching this year, the Twins are a .500 team.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    The Twins topping $100 million next season, due to spending on pitching, would vastly improve the team. I am not sure how it became the case that so many people around here have ignored the importance of starting pitching. With decent starting pitching this year, the Twins are a .500 team.
    Exactly
    Spending money WISELY is very powerful. There could be as much as 20+ million dollars to spend on starting Pitching next year. That will not take anything
    away from growing talent in the Farm system. Some folks, wish to follow in the footsteps of Teams such as Kansas city. The Twins have revenue that the Small markets do not have. Going to Target Field and paying the prices out there is a good reminder. The Twins can rebuild their Farm System while putting out a good product. Its been done. This will probably be the direction Terry Ryan takes.
    Last edited by Highabove; 07-27-2012 at 05:30 AM.

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    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    The Twins topping $100 million next season, due to spending on pitching, would vastly improve the team. I am not sure how it became the case that so many people around here have ignored the importance of starting pitching. With decent starting pitching this year, the Twins are a .500 team.
    I don't think it's being ignored, a lot of people just don't think it's the only problem the Twins should be focused on addressing.

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    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The Astros? The Astros have had a payroll over $90m three times in their history, and not since 2010. The highest payroll in team history was $102m in 2009, coming off a year in which they won 86 games.

    Seattle has had a payroll over $100m only twice in team history, and not since 2008, coming off a year in which they won 88 games. Their 2012 payroll is less than their payroll was in 2003.

    Neither of these teams have "aggressively spent money" in recent history.
    The Mariners payroll jumped from 18th in 1999 and increased to one of only 7 teams over 100 million in 2007. The Bavasi period of Mariners history was aggressive in my opinion. Bringing in Beltre, Sexson, Washburn, Ibanez, Silva and Matt Lawton among others. I think it was a shift in their approach. It doesn't compare to the Yankees free Spending but I think the shift was significant and I think they are still trying to dig their way out of it.


    This was off the top of my head... In Hind sight... The Astros may be a poor example. The moves they made did produce a pennant in the 2005. I was just remembering a period of bringing in some bigger names. Pettite, Clemens, Tejada, Carlos Lee.

    Scratch the Astro's.

    100 Million is a tough bench mark. Not many teams were over 100 million prior to 2008 and I think the lower payroll teams were lower overall.

    Anyway, It was a poorly worded Thread starter by me. I was thinking about these teams and I was wondering if a parallel could be drawn with the Twins jump in payroll with the opening of Target Field. Granted... If you spend money and make good decisions... it works out great but... If you don't... Did it put the Mariners, Cubs and Mets in a hole? Does anyone feel the Twins changed their approach with the opening of Target Field? If So... Did it put us in a hole?

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    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    There's a reason Bavasi got fired... most in Seattle think he's the worst GM to ever manage a baseball team... probably worse than Bill Smith. I don't think the Twins are on this list because they aren't tripping over themselves to get big name free agents. They definitely have taken a wiser approach and have managed a few good hits (Willingham, Doumit, and Burton) to one real disaster (Marquis).

    The Astros, if memory serves me right, were contenders and were bringing in pieces to get them over the top. All teams are going to have to do that. Let's just pretend for a second that everything breaks right for MN next season, they'd still likely need a 2B and some pitching help...

    The Cubs are good example of that not working too, but with their new GM, I doubt they will be going back to their free spending ways.

    Last point, the Twins farm system is partly bad due to injuries, but lets not forget that they had a couple of very bad drafts at the end of the Ryan era. That kind of thing comes and goes to an extent. Bill Smith, like him or hate him, did decently in this area. We will see how Ryan 2 fairs in a couple of years. The system is barren of high end pitching, particularly in the upper levels.

  10. #10
    Was Marquis really a disaster? Yes, he pitched poorly, but it was also a one year contract. One year contracts aren't disasters. Alfonso Soriano is more of a disaster.

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    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    I am not sure how it became the case that so many people around here have ignored the importance of starting pitching.
    I'm not sure who you think is saying the starting pitching either is remotely acceptable, or is unimportant.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    With decent starting pitching this year, the Twins are a .500 team.
    The Twins are 9th in the AL in run scoring, and closer to the 12th spot than to the 8th. The offense is hardly hopeless and can get better on its own, but at the moment it's not a pennant winning collection. "Decent" starting pitching would have to be well above league average, just to reach .500 with this offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbents View Post
    Was Marquis really a disaster? Yes, he pitched poorly, but it was also a one year contract. One year contracts aren't disasters. Alfonso Soriano is more of a disaster.
    Agreed. Not only was it a 1-year deal, but it wasn't for all that much in the current landscape. I think a lot of people saying the deal was a disaster are referring only to the actual performance, but $-wise and length-wise, it didn't hurt much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    Agreed. Not only was it a 1-year deal, but it wasn't for all that much in the current landscape. I think a lot of people saying the deal was a disaster are referring only to the actual performance, but $-wise and length-wise, it didn't hurt much.
    The signing was a disaster cause everyone and there mom knew Marquis has no shot in the AL. Might as well rolled the dice with the anti-christ Slowey for less money and an actually shot at pitching decent.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    The signing was a disaster cause everyone and there mom knew Marquis has no shot in the AL. Might as well rolled the dice with the anti-christ Slowey for less money and an actually shot at pitching decent.
    I guess TR should have consulted There Mom before signing Marquis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbents View Post
    I guess TR should have consulted There Mom before signing Marquis.
    They could have saved the Twins 4 million dollars with the simple phone call.

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    The Twins didn't move away from relying on their farm system, their farm system is/was barren of immediate help. These are not some kind of either/or thing, like so many threads here seem to imply. You can draft well, and sign free agents. The job isn't so hard that you can't figure out how to do both. Can the OP explain why you can't both draft well, and sign free agents? Plus, if you spend a ton of money in 2011, instead of bringing up prospects, those prospects would have been draft in 2005 or or 2006 or so. So I really don't get this at all. But I'm willing to read your logic, and if you make a great argument, even change my mind.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #17
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Small to medium bad deals can add up.

    Nishioka 5 million

    Marquis 3 million

    Blackburn 4.75 million
    ----------------------

    It can be argued that 13 million dollars was thrown down the drain this year.

    13 million dollars spent wisely would have brought in ????
    Last edited by Highabove; 07-27-2012 at 02:17 PM.

  18. #18
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Throw in Capps "reasonable for a proven closer" $4.5 million.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Throw in Capps "reasonable for a proven closer" $4.5 million.
    I think you mean "reasonable" for a "proven closer".

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    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The Twins didn't move away from relying on their farm system, their farm system is/was barren of immediate help. These are not some kind of either/or thing, like so many threads here seem to imply. You can draft well, and sign free agents. The job isn't so hard that you can't figure out how to do both. Can the OP explain why you can't both draft well, and sign free agents? Plus, if you spend a ton of money in 2011, instead of bringing up prospects, those prospects would have been draft in 2005 or or 2006 or so. So I really don't get this at all. But I'm willing to read your logic, and if you make a great argument, even change my mind.
    My Fault... I know what I'm trying to say but struggling to condense it.

    I was watching Outfront on CNN... Went to Bed... Instead of thinking about Erin Burnett like every Red Blooded Male should be doing. I picked up my Ipad and started reading Twins Daily and my thoughts turned to the Twins Pitching Situation.

    I thought... If the Trade Deadline doesn't net some decent pitching. We may be looking at Free Agent money being spent to address Pitching.

    Then my thoughts turned to the Marlins this year and then I thought that Free Agency or just plain spending in general doesn't always work.

    The Cubs, Astro's, Met's and Mariners came to my mind. All Clubs that spent themselves into holes.

    Then I started thinking that it could be dangerous... Kind of a repeating cycle... If you rely on Big names and big contracts to fill out your roster or are trading young prospects for big names. You have to keep going back to that well.

    It seemed clear that the Farm System is really the only way to get your organization healthy...

    Then I thought... We Jumped from 24th to 11th in payroll in 2010 and to 9th in 2011. We had a nice 2010... Injuries killed us in 2011 and...

    I then started thinking... Was this a shift in previous philosophy... Spending money was never really an option in the Metrodome... Is it possible that this change in philosophy... If it was one... Can be compared to the other 4 clubs. Is there a lesson learned here.

    After that thought... I started this thread and explained my thinking poorly. I should have been thinking about Erin Burnett. My Fault.

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