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Thread: Time for a change

  1. #1
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Time for a change

    I've been a Gardy supporter. I think he's often been blamed for things out of his control, things he did correctly that didn't work out, or things that maybe could be questioned, but were at the least defensible options.

    No longer. I think it's time for a change.

    While there are certainly things wrong with the Twins that aren't his fault, I think we've reached the point of admitting this team isn't performing as well as it could. I said it in the game thread today, I'll say it here...the stench of losing is beginning to permeate this organization and it has reached the point where you can see it on the field.

    I don't think it's reasonable to say the team we saw play in Chicago this week is, day in and day out, prepared to play winning baseball. I don't think any player on that team expected to win today's game when the first pitch was thrown, and worse, although this is easy to say from 2000 miles away, I get the feeling nobody really gives a crap. I get the feeling pretty much every veteren is often going through the motions, right down to and including Mauer. I get the feeling losing is starting to be an accepted, and acceptable, outcome. Failure is the easiest thing to accomplish. Time and again we see the same simple mistakes, over and over, with seemingly no repercussions, and worse, no improvement. It's one thing to lack talent, it's another to not care. How friggin hard is it to know how many outs there are? To run the bases with smarts? To properly execute a cutoff throw?

    At least some of that starts at the top. I know many will disagree, but I believe strongly that winning attitudes and losing attitudes make a difference. I have seen the effects of strong or weak leadership through my life, in sports and out, and believe that sometimes, groups of people achieve more than they really should. And sometimes they achieve less. It's difficult to put your finger on exactly why, but if there's a common thread in my background, it's the posivie or negative effect a few key people have on the group.

    I certainly don't know whether a new field manager will at least get this team to play like it cares. IMO, it's time to find out. As a lifelong fan, I've lived through some tough years as a Twins fan. This feels different, somehow.

    Maybe I'm overreacting to today's debacle, but in truth I've been thinking about this post for weeks. It's time for a change in the dugout.

  2. #2
    This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.

    I have been a Gardy supporter in the past but with the team likely going into a 3-5 year rebuilding period it may be time to clean house. I highly doubt anything will happen since Terry Ryan has been reluctant to fire the medical staff and scouting department that has failed miserably for years. If Ryan gives up his interim tag, expect a new GM to overhaul the organization top to bottom.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer J-Dog Dungan's Avatar
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    While I may like Gardy, I do think that it might be time for a new voice, not that I know who that would be.

  4. #4
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    I have to agree with the recommendation. I voiced the same call during the first week of the season--premature that early, I know, but nothing about the poor play this entire season is that different from asphyxiated, lifeless play at the beginning. While I'm pleased as punch about Willingham and Plouffe and Revere and that Morneau is hitting better, I still find this team uninspired. Gardy cannot be blamed for a lot of things, but sometimes a team simply has to replace the manager to refresh the team. If the Twins did replace Gardenhire, who would be a great candidate: someone from outside the organization? The new AAA manager? Jerry White or Scott Ulger? I believe that if the Twins do not make any major trades, they have the offensive potential to do very well next season if only they get a decent rotation--you can define decent how you like.

  5. #5
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    They throw to the wrong base, they lose count of outs, they get picked off, they just don't look professional. Either Gardy or the minor league coaches, or both, need to go.
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #6
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Tom Kelly has stated that one of the reasons he retired, was that the Players were starting to tune him out.
    Almost every Manager has a Shelf life. Talking about his last Season,Terry Francona stated "I was no longer getting through to my Players."
    Almost every Manager reaches this point. There are a few exceptions such as Tony La Russa. The day may even come when Joe Maddon decides to move on.
    This is not a bad reflection on Gardenhire, it happens to almost everybody. Even Bud Grant reached this point!!
    Last edited by Highabove; 07-25-2012 at 08:19 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    I have to concur. I think Gardy has been a fine manager, and has added far more than he's cost us. But after a while it's easy for a manager, for players, and for an organization to fall into a rut, to get hemmed in by comfortable patterns without even realizing it. That's the value in periodically bringing in new blood and fresh voices. I wouldn't make a move mid-season, but maybe the understanding on all sides that, after this season, it's time to move on.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
    This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.
    Considering the Twins were in second place in August in 2010 and ended up winning handily, a little unfair to suggest they gave up the second half of that year. But that's picking nits.

    Chief, I am coming around as well. I have gone back and forth but I think I have reached the point were it is time for some new leadership on the field staff. It is not Gardy's fault that the pitching staff is atrocious this year, but I agree that the culture needs a change.

    I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.
    Papers...business papers.

  9. #9
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.
    Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

    If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

    If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

    Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

    If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

    If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

    Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).
    Good point, but hard to envision who could be brought in from the outside at this point for the rest of the season. Firing Gardy and having Ulger as the interim for the rest of the year strikes me as a recipe for even more disaster than the season will be.
    Papers...business papers.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Within a few days following the end of the Season, the Twins will start asking Season Ticket Holders for down payments on the following Season.

  12. #12
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    I've never really been high on Gardy. He's improved on a number of things that made him a bad manager to start his career with the Twins, but the things he did well are no longer there. JR should retire or find a real replacement and Gardy should be done. Get new people in here that wont let the inmates run the asylum. This team is a joke right now, people usually get fired for this kind of prolonged ineptitude.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

    If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

    If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

    Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).
    Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

  14. #14
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    If a move was in the making, Terry Ryan would give Gardy the option of saving face and resigning/retiring in the off-season. He may very well think it's time to call it quits anyway.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.
    I agree,
    Ryan will not consider removing Gardenhire during the Season.
    Ryan could be ordered by the Pohlad's to make a change but I doubt it.
    They are still achieving their main goal by making big Money this Summer.
    Last edited by Highabove; 07-25-2012 at 08:58 PM.

  16. #16
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I guess I should have added to my original post: I doubt any change is even under consideration. I just think it should be.

    As for timing, if it were to be done, IMO it should be done immediately. I agree it's kind of harsh to let Gardy go midseason, but this is the big leagues. Managers are hired to be fired, and they know that going in. Let Ulger finish out the season and start the search for a new manager immediately. If you don't find one before the season ends, fine, fill the position after the season.

  17. #17
    The Twins managed to right the ship enough to play .500 ball. That kind of put talk of firing Gardy and or the coaching staff on the back-burner. I think the talk will return if things really fall apart like they did last year.

  18. #18
    I'm starting to come around to the idea of replacing Gardy as well. The players have become too comfortable with him. Gardy seems tired. You can only tell players to make the plays the proper way so many times and if they don't listen anymore you've lost the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in years past Gardy would discipline players that would miss a cutoff man, run the bases incorrectly, or miss signs. I don't think I've heard of anyone being fined or benched for anything this year. I don't think anyone has been in Gardy's doghouse this year.

    Let him finish out the year, and please, please hire someone outside the organization that already has MLB managerial experience (I don't have a name in mind.)
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  19. #19
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    This may shock some of you, but I don't object to the idea of replacing Gardy. I've always viewed him as above average at managing a clubhouse and about average as a game manager. I have always assigned no better than a 50% chance of improvement under a new manager. I'm seeing the strength of the argument that perhaps Gardy has worn down. His clubhouse management appeared to be sub-par last year, and his game results have been underwhelming for two years now as evidenced by all the mental mistakes. Managers have off-seasons toop. I still think he manages the pitching staff very well, and I'd give him solid grades again for this year in that category.

    I DO believe that his biggest problem is this collection of somewhat heartless players. Too many of these guys know the trainers too well. The body language is often pathetic. My hope is that Terry Ryan, over the course of the next several months, finds a new home for the players they know already are not tough-minded. Do we really know who thet are? We'd probably all guess most of the same names: Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, Span, Baker, Valencia, And Casilla are some of my suspects. I get the sense that Willingham and Doumit are grinders. But I could be totally off base on some of these. Regardless, wouldn't you really enjoy watching a team that always appeared to be playing both hard and tough?

  20. #20
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    What manager wins with this sad sack of pitchers? (with apologies to Scott Diamond). How do you discipline a player for continually making errors when there is no one there to threaten for his job. It happened with Valencia but there is no other position where that is even a possibility, Gardy is stuck with this mess and you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

    I understand the sentiment on this and perhaps it's time considering how much upheaval this team is likely facing in the next 3-4 years at least. At the end of the day though it's just window dressing, Gardy ain't the problem.

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