Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 67

Thread: Article: Frankie's Final Start?

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    4,011
    Like
    104
    Liked 394 Times in 208 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PMKI View Post
    If Liriano doesn't want to be traded like somebody up above said than maybe we can trade him and get some good prospects and then sign him again in the offseason.
    If he doesn't want to be traded, we should trade him and that will make him want to come back in the off-season? huh?

  2. #22
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
    Posts
    2,449
    Twitter
    @twinsgeek
    Like
    1
    Liked 167 Times in 98 Posts
    Blog Entries
    241
    I'll predict this is NOT his last start in a Twins uniform. He'll still be in a Twins uniform next Sunday. Because teams are having trouble sorting out if they're in it or not, teams are waiting to see who is really available before giving their best offer. This is going to go down to the wire.

    (And from the Twins perspective, that's the way they should play it.)

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    4,011
    Like
    104
    Liked 394 Times in 208 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I wasn't disagreeing with Pig at all, if you notice I've consistently agreed with him on this topic... I just added that his ability to locate his fastball (which I'd argue has little to nothing to do with Butera) is also part of his resurgence.
    Sorry it wasn't in direct reference to you, just to the topic being brought up agian that Butera is somehow a big part of Liriano's resurgence.

  4. #24
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
    Posts
    8,685
    Like
    2,656
    Liked 3,308 Times in 1,755 Posts
    Blog Entries
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post
    Hard call--if we trade him we must get a top notch prospect. I am not being paid the big bucks Terry Ryan is--so I wont make the call...
    The main reason I won't make a call is I don't know what kind of packages are being offered, nor what my scouts say about the players involved. Nor do I have a clear idea of what kind of money it would take to sign him to an extension. I'm in the camp of not trading him just for the sake of trading him; but if the offer is substantial, I'd be listening. And I'm very leery of a contract that could be untradeable if he reverts to recent form, a situation that would make Blackburn's look like a wise contract by comparison.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Double-A PMKI's Avatar
    Posts
    128
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    If he doesn't want to be traded, we should trade him and that will make him want to come back in the off-season? huh?
    Well by that I am kind of assuming he wants to stay in Minnesota.

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    4,011
    Like
    104
    Liked 394 Times in 208 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PMKI View Post
    Well by that I am kind of assuming he wants to stay in Minnesota.
    I think the Twins would be much better served trying to sign him now while they have exclusive negoitating rights. Rather then get a couple C+ prospects and then having to compete and overpay potentially in the FA market.

  7. #27
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,721
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 568 Times in 372 Posts
    I've never understood waiting to the deadline. If Pittsburgh had Frankie and Span the last month, how many more wins would they have? Isn't there more value in having them early? This risk aversion, and waiting, is an example of some pretty old school, not so strategic, thinking.
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #28
    This speaks to a larger issue, one that has been tangentially debated here and elsewhere....how do you decide what pieces to keep and what pieces to trade? Liriano might be our best chance for an ace, and cheaper than any other ace out there, but he's also our best trade bait. Willingham is signed to a friendly deal, but it's friendly to US as well as others, and having a masher for $7M/yr is good for any team, rebuilding or otherwise. The same arguments can be made for Span - he's on a team-friendly deal, so while he is good trade bait, he's also cheap and valuable to US. The long-term strategy is to keep all the valuable and inexpensive pieces, sign good contracts with young players to keep them valuable and inexpensive, and let the dead weight go and fill their shoes with new (not dead) weight. So if we could get anything for Pavano or Capps or Burton, you let them go because 2012 is done. Either you sign Liriano to a 2- or 3-year deal before the deadline, or you get what you can for him, because we aren't going to compete against everyone else in the free agent market at the end of the season, and (see above) 2012 is done. I'd also say that Morneau is in the same boat, but unless you can get something for him and not have to pay someone else to take him, then you keep him and let him go after next season (or trade him mid-season in 2013 if we're still this bad). So we end up keeping Mauer, Morneau, Plouffe, Carroll, Dozier, Willingham, Span, Doumit and Revere, try to lock up Frankie or trade him by the weekend, and hope for development of our young pitchers, or go spend a little on one or two free agents because Frankie, Capps, and Carl are gone, and our rotation is probably Blackburn, Diamond, Deduno, Walters and DeVries (which would give us money to spend on at least one higher-end FA pitcher). And I like that team's mix of speed, average, and power, especially if Morneau keeps improving, a decent bullpen. We'd need one or two starters, but if we can sign Frankie for 3/$27, I'd do it, and if we can sign Baker for $5, I'd do that, too.

  9. #29
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
    Posts
    2,449
    Twitter
    @twinsgeek
    Like
    1
    Liked 167 Times in 98 Posts
    Blog Entries
    241
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I've never understood waiting to the deadline. If Pittsburgh had Frankie and Span the last month, how many more wins would they have? Isn't there more value in having them early? This risk aversion, and waiting, is an example of some pretty old school, not so strategic, thinking.
    But that's the way negotiating works. I assure you: it isn't the Twins who want to wait. It's the other teams.

    One of the first lessons of negotiation is that "time" is a point of leverage, and it's usually the buyer that can use that leverage. There is a big incentive for the seller to sell right now, but there is usually very little reason for the buyer to want to buy right now. They have done without this thing for most of their life - what's another 48 hours?

    Yes, the team that wants Frankie, if they traded today, would get two extra starts, and that's not without value. But it's not worth overpaying for because they want to see if Hamels or Greinke or Sanchez or Garza might also be on the market. If those guys come on the market, the Twins will probably need to settle for a bit less than they are hoping for, but if they don't, then the Twins have several teams, some of whom are in competition with each other like the Braves and Nationals, battling it out for Frankie.

    At that point "value" becomes a very relative term. They aren't computing if he's worth 2 or 2.4 WAR over the rest of the season. They're looking at increasing their chances of the postseason or watching their competitor increase THEIR chances of the postseason. It becomes a "win or go home" scenario. Suddenly that high-upside guy in A ball seems very far away from helping the team. Maybe he is worth throwing into the package.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    4,011
    Like
    104
    Liked 394 Times in 208 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    But that's the way negotiating works. I assure you: it isn't the Twins who want to wait. It's the other teams.

    One of the first lessons of negotiation is that "time" is a point of leverage, and it's usually the buyer that can use that leverage. There is a big incentive for the seller to sell right now, but there is usually very little reason for the buyer to want to buy right now. They have done without this thing for most of their life - what's another 48 hours?

    Yes, the team that wants Frankie, if they traded today, would get two extra starts, and that's not without value. But it's not worth overpaying for because they want to see if Hamels or Greinke or Sanchez or Garza might also be on the market. If those guys come on the market, the Twins will probably need to settle for a bit less than they are hoping for, but if they don't, then the Twins have several teams, some of whom are in competition with each other like the Braves and Nationals, battling it out for Frankie.

    At that point "value" becomes a very relative term. They aren't computing if he's worth 2 or 2.4 WAR over the rest of the season. They're looking at increasing their chances of the postseason or watching their competitor increase THEIR chances of the postseason. It becomes a "win or go home" scenario. Suddenly that high-upside guy in A ball seems very far away from helping the team. Maybe he is worth throwing into the package.
    Yeah, it should also be noted that there have been plenty of trades that have taken place weeks before the deadline in the past.

  11. #31
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
    Posts
    4,094
    Like
    1,826
    Liked 1,299 Times in 525 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jpodratz1 View Post
    I think it's worth noting the fact that Liriano has done exceptionally well since Butera has been his personal catcher. Earlier in the season when Gardy wanted to start the year with 2 catchers (Mauer & Doumit), his ERA was over 9. They later called up Butera from AAA but Frankie was already in the bullpen by then. After being moved back to the starting rotation Drew has been his personal catcher and his ERA has been under 3. Yesterday they teamed Drew with Sam Deduno and it was Sam's best start by far since his call up. I realize Drew Butera is a problem offensively but he is an asset handling pitchers and with the current state of the rotation, that should not be overlooked.
    I don't think it's worth noting at all. I find it to be nothing more than a coincidence, and no amount of Dickbert's on-air anecdote-filled Butera slobberjobs is going to change that.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  12. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer amjgt's Avatar
    Posts
    515
    Like
    44
    Liked 165 Times in 95 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post
    Whether or not it is the Drew factor, Frankie is pitching as well as he has in years. Do we sign him to a 3 year extension--very risky for a guy who is inconsistent?? Do we keep him and risk losing him for nothing in the fall?? No way would I offer him the $12million it would take to get compensation.

    Hard call--if we trade him we must get a top notch prospect. I am not being paid the big bucks Terry Ryan is--so I wont make the call...
    At this point, you have to at least make the QO (if we don't trade him). I mean, even if he regresses a little for the rest of the year, he would have to turn down the 1 year / 12mil offer, right?

    I mean, he'd be looking at 3/35 or 4/45, so why would he even consider the 1/12 offer. So, if nothing else comes from this hot stretch from Frankie, he at least pitched well enough for us to make the 1/12 offer and have him turn it down. SO, at least we would get a sandwich pick out of it.

    Once he hits free agency, he's gone. Not because he doesn't like it here (maybe he does maybe he doesn't) but because there's going to be some team out there that is much less risk-averse than the Twins who will offer 2-3mil more per season or 1-2 years more than the Twins are willing to go.

    I'd like it if they made a 3/27 offer right now, before really shopping him. If he says no (which I would expect he would), then so be it and you explore your trade options, all the while having the QO compensation pick in the back of your mind to determine if a given offer gets you enough back for Liriano.

  13. #33
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,721
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 568 Times in 372 Posts
    John, this close, I agree. But why didn't Pittsburgh trade a month ago, and get 30 starts from Span, and 5-7 more from Liriano? That's a big difference in value. If a team starts of 20-5, why not go get 2 more good players, and protect your huge lead?
    Lighten up Francis....

  14. #34
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,409
    Like
    420
    Liked 827 Times in 520 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    John, this close, I agree. But why didn't Pittsburgh trade a month ago, and get 30 starts from Span, and 5-7 more from Liriano? That's a big difference in value. If a team starts of 20-5, why not go get 2 more good players, and protect your huge lead?
    cause it's a small sample size? and because everything is working, so why disrupt things? Because most teams 25 games in aren't necessarily ready to sell, and so you overpay even more? There's good reason to be risk adverse that early in the season

  15. #35
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,409
    Like
    420
    Liked 827 Times in 520 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by tmerrickkeller View Post
    This speaks to a larger issue, one that has been tangentially debated here and elsewhere....how do you decide what pieces to keep and what pieces to trade? Liriano might be our best chance for an ace, and cheaper than any other ace out there, but he's also our best trade bait. Willingham is signed to a friendly deal, but it's friendly to US as well as others, and having a masher for $7M/yr is good for any team, rebuilding or otherwise. The same arguments can be made for Span - he's on a team-friendly deal, so while he is good trade bait, he's also cheap and valuable to US. The long-term strategy is to keep all the valuable and inexpensive pieces, sign good contracts with young players to keep them valuable and inexpensive, and let the dead weight go and fill their shoes with new (not dead) weight. So if we could get anything for Pavano or Capps or Burton, you let them go because 2012 is done. Either you sign Liriano to a 2- or 3-year deal before the deadline, or you get what you can for him, because we aren't going to compete against everyone else in the free agent market at the end of the season, and (see above) 2012 is done. I'd also say that Morneau is in the same boat, but unless you can get something for him and not have to pay someone else to take him, then you keep him and let him go after next season (or trade him mid-season in 2013 if we're still this bad). So we end up keeping Mauer, Morneau, Plouffe, Carroll, Dozier, Willingham, Span, Doumit and Revere, try to lock up Frankie or trade him by the weekend, and hope for development of our young pitchers, or go spend a little on one or two free agents because Frankie, Capps, and Carl are gone, and our rotation is probably Blackburn, Diamond, Deduno, Walters and DeVries (which would give us money to spend on at least one higher-end FA pitcher). And I like that team's mix of speed, average, and power, especially if Morneau keeps improving, a decent bullpen. We'd need one or two starters, but if we can sign Frankie for 3/$27, I'd do it, and if we can sign Baker for $5, I'd do that, too.

    There's one big thing, what valuable asset can be replaced easier? You can argue that Span will be replaced sooner than later, whether that be by Revere now or by Hicks in a year or so, but Span is much more expendable to this team than anyone else. Willingham is a bit different. He's harder to replace now and there's less options to replace his production in the system.

    With Liriano, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the Twins have tried to tie him up, but at this point he's not tied up and at this point there's no way he accepts a cheap deal, nor should he. He's going to be a commodity this offseason and if he wants to return here, there is no doubt they will sign him. But it is clearly in his best interest to wait it out that this point, and given history, it's in the Twins best interest to get something good for him... that could be a draft pick or a prospect. At this point, I'd bet a prospect or two as too many teams need what he is doing.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    576
    Like
    0
    Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
    Looks like Dempster is going to the Braves. At first look, I would think it would hurt Liriano's trade value because there is one less suitor in on him. I am starting to think that it might actually benefit him because there is one less impactful arm on the market. Thoughts?

  17. #37
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
    Posts
    1,954
    Like
    257
    Liked 205 Times in 115 Posts
    Well the Cubs get Delgado, which is high price for Dempster, and encouraging news for setting the market for starting pitching. Liriano, please, pitch lights out tonight.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Double-A PMKI's Avatar
    Posts
    128
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Jim Bowden tweeted "Cubs not resting on their laurels continue trade discussions with Dodgers on deal that would send Matt Garza for package including Zach Lee"

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,621
    Like
    3,697
    Liked 3,187 Times in 1,365 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Well the Cubs get Delgado, which is high price for Dempster, and encouraging news for setting the market for starting pitching. Liriano, please, pitch lights out tonight.
    I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.

  20. #40
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
    Posts
    1,954
    Like
    257
    Liked 205 Times in 115 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I would be disappointed in the return for Liriano if all they got was Randall Delgado.
    I'm not sure that's all they got. Delgado is already in the majors, so my thinking is if the Twins are willing to take someone not as close to the majors, they should be able to get someone with higher upside. I was worried that the compensation rules would devalue trading for impending FAs...

    But you've been advocating resigning Liriano (right?), so you value him a bit more than many of us do...

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.