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Thread: Attention Mauer Haters!

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=rocketpig;29622]I'll probably get blasted for saying this but Joe Mauer is a better baseball player than Kirby Puckett.



    I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    My sentiments exactly. The catching position is a natural leadership position, unfortunately that just doesn't appear to complement Joe's natural personality, which at times, when dealing with the media, is somewhat reminiscent of the classic literary character from Gone With The Wind, the milquetoast Ashley Wilkes. It just doesn't appear in his nature to do what Puck, and to a lesser extent, Hunter, accepted naturally, ie, the willingness to put the team on his back. He was seemingly unaware that with his new contract now in effect, that more would be asked and expected of him in terms of "preparation and effort".

    When he's playing near the top of his game at the plate, he's a marvel with the bat, it is somewhat reminiscent to what Rod Carew could do with the stick, without the bunting. Unfortunately, he's being paid to produce like 2009 is his normal output.

    For him to come closer to justifying his contract he must 1) stay healthy, which should limit the batting slumps; 2)continue to reverse his semi-disastrous early-season GB/FB ratio (even now, still ridiculously high at 3.15 vs career 1.89); 3) which in turn, can continue to increase his slugging percentage closer back to career norms (check out Joe's 2010 stats, they almost perfectly match his career norms- 2010: 327/402/469 vs career numbers of 324/404/469), after today, Mauer's slugging % has soared significantly this month to his present season high of 448. 4) Joe has had 3 of 8 years in his career exceeding a 500 SLG %, which was accomplished w/o a drop in BA. I'd gladly trade a few points of OBA for a few more points of SLG for a player making $23 MIL and batting in the 3 spot.

    I give the Twins and Mauer credit for effectuating a plan in terms of managing/limiting his catching duties in order to maximize his value at the plate. Joe's current rate of games at the catcher position relative to total games played for 2012 is only 44%. That translates out to only around 72 games at catcher for Mauer in a 162 game season and that probably is what it is for the rest of his career, which changes the valuation metrics on his contract significantly.
    Right on

    I would say the main reason his popularity has taken such a big hit, is this: He and his agent used the Hometown angle to squeeze every nickle out of the Twins that they could. They knew that Twins would face a PR nightmare if he signed elsewhere, and the FO couldn't allow that to happen. While there was no doubt other teams would have offered as much or more for his services, it's pretty clear that Joe could never survive the pressure and media scrutiny that would go along with playing in a place like Boston, NY, or maybe Philly or L.A. I don't think he ever had any intention of playing anywhere other than MN, knowing full well the Twins would be forced into offering a massive contract. Forget about a Hometown Discount, the Twins had to pay a Hometown Premium to keep him here. Even though, i don't think he ever had any desire to play in bigger market with all that pressure and scrutiny.
    He's one of us. His agent used that angle and had the Twins over a barrel. Then his production goes down, he starts to transition away from catcher, he shows us how soft he is, how clueless he can be, and how non-exsistent his leadership qualities are. He's the anti-Kirby Puckett.

    We all know he's a great hitter. But he's paid like a top 5 player in the game, and he's more like a top 30 player. And some of the fan base feels cheated by one of their own....and he still doesn't quite seem to get it.

  3. #23
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boney View Post
    I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.
    He takes far more walks than Kirby. He plays catcher, historically the weakest offensive position on the field. His slugging percentage is pretty much the same as Kirby's.

    His career OBP is a whopping 40 points higher than Kirby, who never posted an OBP higher than .379. Joe is on his way to cresting a .400 OBP for a fifth time in his career. The only tangible advantage Kirby had over Joe was in stolen bases, which Kirby basically stopped doing in his mid to late 20s.

    Kirby Puckett was a very good baseball player. Joe Mauer is a better one.

  4. #24
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
    Right on

    I would say the main reason his popularity has taken such a big hit, is this: He and his agent used the Hometown angle to squeeze every nickle out of the Twins that they could. They knew that Twins would face a PR nightmare if he signed elsewhere, and the FO couldn't allow that to happen. While there was no doubt other teams would have offered as much or more for his services, it's pretty clear that Joe could never survive the pressure and media scrutiny that would go along with playing in a place like Boston, NY, or maybe Philly or L.A. I don't think he ever had any intention of playing anywhere other than MN, knowing full well the Twins would be forced into offering a massive contract. Forget about a Hometown Discount, the Twins had to pay a Hometown Premium to keep him here. Even though, i don't think he ever had any desire to play in bigger market with all that pressure and scrutiny.
    He's one of us. His agent used that angle and had the Twins over a barrel. Then his production goes down, he starts to transition away from catcher, he shows us how soft he is, how clueless he can be, and how non-exsistent his leadership qualities are. He's the anti-Kirby Puckett.

    We all know he's a great hitter. But he's paid like a top 5 player in the game, and he's more like a top 30 player. And some of the fan base feels cheated by one of their own....and he still doesn't quite seem to get it.
    Joe Mauer would have received more than $181m on the open market. The Yankees, Red Sox, and other large market teams were absolutely clamoring to find a good catcher in 2009. Posada was on his way out. Varitek was 150 years old. Mauer would have received Pujols-type money from one of those teams.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    Joe Mauer would have received more than $181m on the open market. The Yankees, Red Sox, and other large market teams were absolutely clamoring to find a good catcher in 2009. Posada was on his way out. Varitek was 150 years old. Mauer would have received Pujols-type money from one of those teams.
    My impression is that he wasn't going anywhere. He's the MLB catcher's version of Greinke. His agent, Ron Shapiro, had to be one of the luckiest men alive back in 09/10, look at the facts on the table:

    1) If Mauer really wanted Pujols-type money, he could have waited for FA to bid his value even higher
    2) GM Bill Smith
    3) Mauer has career year at age 26 in 09
    4) Mauer's power production numbers were wildly inflated in a soon-to-be irrelevant stadium
    5) Even as he was producing numbers that were ridiculous for a catcher, his full-time catching days were already numbered
    6) Mauer was physically breaking down even as his numbers were still on the upswing
    7) The Twins couldn't possibly afford the PR disaster of losing the "face of the franchise" during Target Field's marketing stage
    8) Did I mention Bill Smith? Oh yeah, Shapiro was "negotiating" with possibly the most unprepared GM in sports history

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    If Joe Mauer can stay relatively healthy for the next 7 or so years he will goto the hall of fame. Since he already doesn't rely on home runs or speed to obtain his very good .874 Career OPS there is no reason why he can't continue to put up .860-.900 OPS seasons until he is 35 or so.

    Just take a look at his top 10 similarity scores through age 28 on Baseball Reference:

    1. Mickey Cochrane (Hall of Famer)
    2. Bill Dickey (Hall of Famer)
    3. Jason Kendall (Kendall was quite good for his first 5-6 years)
    4. Yoggi Berra (Hall of Famer)
    5. Victor Martinez
    6. Jose Vidro
    7. Gary Carter (Hall of Famer)
    8. Derek Jeter (Future hall of famer)
    9. Nomar (Was on his way to a HOF career before he broke down)
    10. Charlie Gehringer (hall of famer)

    Also, Mauer is putting up very similar numbers as Rod Carew did while he was a Twin (higher OPS, slightly lower OPS+), and he has done all of this playing the most demanding position on the field (the majority of the time), oh and he plays that position extremely well often being cited as one of the best defensive catchers in the game.

    Mauer has already placed him self somewhere in the top 5 Twins of all time (I place him above Olivia, and close to equal to Puckett and Carew) and an argument could be made that he will end up the 2nd best Twin of all time by the end of this contract.

    So what does all of this suggest?

    If you hate Mauer, you are basically a fair weather fan/brain dead moron. Yes, 23MM is a lot of money, it would have been nice if they could have gotten him on board for 18MM-20MM a season, but for hall of fame production I will take that contract any day.

  7. #27
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    My impression is that he wasn't going anywhere. He's the MLB catcher's version of Greinke. His agent, Ron Shapiro, had to be one of the luckiest men alive back in 09/10, look at the facts on the table:

    1) If Mauer really wanted Pujols-type money, he could have waited for FA to bid his value even higher
    2) GM Bill Smith
    3) Mauer has career year at age 26 in 09
    4) Mauer's power production numbers were wildly inflated in a soon-to-be irrelevant stadium
    5) Even as he was producing numbers that were ridiculous for a catcher, his full-time catching days were already numbered
    6) Mauer was physically breaking down even as his numbers were still on the upswing
    7) The Twins couldn't possibly afford the PR disaster of losing the "face of the franchise" during Target Field's marketing stage
    8) Did I mention Bill Smith? Oh yeah, Shapiro was "negotiating" with possibly the most unprepared GM in sports history
    I don't really disagree with anything you're saying except it still doesn't negate the point that if Mauer chose to hit free agency, he gets Pujols-type money. The poster I replied to said Mauer demanded a "hometown premium". That simply wasn't the case. If he plays through 2010 and hits the FA market, he gets over $200m (ie. more than the Twins paid him). Mauer put up an .871 OPS in 2010 in a stadium that plays huge. Teams wouldn't have balked much at his 2010 line when negotiating a contract.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boney View Post



    I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.
    Mauer also has a 44 point advantage over Puckett in career OBP, and for people that claim that Mauer is only a singles hitter it should be noted that his .470 career slugging percentage is almost equal to Puckett's .477 career slugging. Mauer's OPS+ also happens to be 11 points higher then Puckett as well.

    Both were elite fielders, but I think Mauer gets the slight edge on defensive value since catcher is generally considered the toughest position in baseball followed by SS, 2B and CF. Though some people switch 2B and CF which is fine.

    Also it should be noted that I am one of the biggest Kirby Puckett fans/defenders out there.

  9. #29
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    This just in... in other news... pepperoni pizza is better than sausage pizza.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    This just in... in other news... pepperoni pizza is better than sausage pizza.
    I just realized that if pepperoni pizza cost $23 million I would probably never have it again.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    Joe Mauer would have received more than $181m on the open market. The Yankees, Red Sox, and other large market teams were absolutely clamoring to find a good catcher in 2009. Posada was on his way out. Varitek was 150 years old. Mauer would have received Pujols-type money from one of those teams.
    Yep, never disagreed with that.
    I'm saying it's a mute point. He never intended to leave the Twins, and he wouldn't last 1 day in NY or Boston, and he knows it. He would have been absolutely destroyed last year. He can't even handle the media pressure in the Twin Cities....

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    He takes far more walks than Kirby. He plays catcher, historically the weakest offensive position on the field. His slugging percentage is pretty much the same as Kirby's.

    His career OBP is a whopping 40 points higher than Kirby, who never posted an OBP higher than .379. Joe is on his way to cresting a .400 OBP for a fifth time in his career. The only tangible advantage Kirby had over Joe was in stolen bases, which Kirby basically stopped doing in his mid to late 20s.

    Kirby Puckett was a very good baseball player. Joe Mauer is a better one.
    Kirby's approach at the plate was "the anti-Joe Mauer". I don't know if there are splits for Puckett, but he was a very good "bad ball" hitter. When asked what his hitting philosophy was, he stated that he didn't have a philosophy, "I just go up there hackin'". His BB% is close to Ben Revere's.

    You are largely correct about tangibles, although the last 10 years of Puck's career, when he converted himself to a power player, he averaged 20.3 HRs/YR-- Most players develop more power over time, not less-- Joe has done it once, and will likely never come close to that number again. The RBI stat has largely been discounted by modern day stat-hounds as a statistic of random/lucky opportunities, I still don't think it properly accounts for "timely hitting"- IE, Puck averaged 96 RBI/yr for his career on many more bad teams and bad hitters batting in front of him, Mauer has averaged only 69 RBI/yr, with some very good plate protection behind him. Runs scored is valued by stat-hounds, Kirby averaged 89/year, Mauer has averaged only 75/year. Career SLG%: Puck-477/Mauer-469.

    And that gets me to the intangible advantages, and Puck proved in his career that he was ready and willing to be the team leader- still waiting for Joe to step up to the plate, I hope it happens, but I remain doubtful.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Kirby's approach at the plate was "the anti-Joe Mauer". I don't know if there are splits for Puckett, but he was a very good "bad ball" hitter. When asked what his hitting philosophy was, he stated that he didn't have a philosophy, "I just go up there hackin'". His BB% is close to Ben Revere's.

    You are largely correct about tangibles, although the last 10 years of Puck's career, when he converted himself to a power player, he averaged 20.3 HRs/YR-- Most players develop more power over time, not less-- Joe has done it once, and will likely never come close to that number again. The RBI stat has largely been discounted by modern day stat-hounds as a statistic of random/lucky opportunities, I still don't think it properly accounts for "timely hitting"- IE, Puck averaged 96 RBI/yr for his career on many more bad teams and bad hitters batting in front of him, Mauer has averaged only 69 RBI/yr, with some very good plate protection behind him. Runs scored is valued by stat-hounds, Kirby averaged 89/year, Mauer has averaged only 75/year.

    And that gets me to the intangible advantages, and Puck proved in his career that he was ready and willing to be the team leader- still waiting for Joe to step up to the plate, I hope it happens, but I remain doubtful.
    Did you really bring RBI's and Runs into this conversation?

    "Runs scored" is not valued by stat hounds because it is mostly dependent on what your teammates do, just like RBIs. you might be thinking of weighted runs created (or wRC+) in that case Mauer in fact leads Puckett with a 133 to 122 score.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    If Joe Mauer can stay relatively healthy for the next 7 or so years he will goto the hall of fame. Since he already doesn't rely on home runs or speed to obtain his very good .874 Career OPS there is no reason why he can't continue to put up .860-.900 OPS seasons until he is 35 or so.

    Just take a look at his top 10 similarity scores through age 28 on Baseball Reference:

    1. Mickey Cochrane (Hall of Famer)
    2. Bill Dickey (Hall of Famer)
    3. Jason Kendall (Kendall was quite good for his first 5-6 years)
    4. Yoggi Berra (Hall of Famer)
    5. Victor Martinez
    6. Jose Vidro
    7. Gary Carter (Hall of Famer)
    8. Derek Jeter (Future hall of famer)
    9. Nomar (Was on his way to a HOF career before he broke down)
    10. Charlie Gehringer (hall of famer)

    Also, Mauer is putting up very similar numbers as Rod Carew did while he was a Twin (higher OPS, slightly lower OPS+), and he has done all of this playing the most demanding position on the field (the majority of the time), oh and he plays that position extremely well often being cited as one of the best defensive catchers in the game.

    Mauer has already placed him self somewhere in the top 5 Twins of all time (I place him above Olivia, and close to equal to Puckett and Carew) and an argument could be made that he will end up the 2nd best Twin of all time by the end of this contract.

    So what does all of this suggest?

    If you hate Mauer, you are basically a fair weather fan/brain dead moron. Yes, 23MM is a lot of money, it would have been nice if they could have gotten him on board for 18MM-20MM a season, but for hall of fame production I will take that contract any day.
    If you mindlessly protect Joe Mauer at every turn, you are basically a Sid Hartman simpleton type that can't think on his own.

    BTW..I don't hate Joe Mauer. I just hate everything he represents, that's all. He just isn't worth anything near 23 mill per year for 8 years. There are a lot of guys in the league that can a game with one swing of the bat, and he's not one of them.

  15. #35
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    Bill Smith: Ron, Good to see you... I'm looking forward to getting a deal done right now. Our people have spent a lot of time looking at the situation and we love Joe and want to see him in a Twins Uniform for a long time. I have prepared a very generous offer for you to take a look at. (slides piece of paper across the desk)

    Ron Shapiro: This says... 8 Years at 10 million per? He's the American League MVP! This is the offer?

    Bill Smith: Well... I know our scouts and evaluators have always projected that Joe will someday become a power hitter capable of 20 plus homers a year and I know he hit 28 in the past year despite missing all of April.

    Ron Shapiro... Don't forget his OPS over one thousand.

    Bill Smith: I'm not sure what you mean by that Ron... It's impossible to bat over one thousand... Joe hit .365... So let's keep the discussion grounded in reality. (Ron Shapiro just stares... not sure what to say)

    Ron Shapiro: Bill... It's a combination of... (Bill Cuts him off)

    Bill Smith: Ron... I know our scouts have projected Joe to be a bigger power hitter and it looks like that is coming true... However, Michael J. Fox has come back from the future and presented us with an evaluation from Fan Graphs that says Joe is going to be worth 10 Million a year in 2012.

    Ron Shapiro: Fan Graphs?

    Bill Smith: Yeah... I don't know what Fan Graphs is either but Michael J. Fox was pretty excited about it. He's was shaking in excitement. Could barely get the words out.

    Ron Shapiro: I'll take this to Joe but I should say that we are under the impression that he will be paid a lot more by other clubs when his contract expires next year. I'm not sure that 10 million for that period of time makes sense.

    Bill Smith: You gotta consider the hometown discount thing-a-ma-job... Don't ya... Joe does want to stay in Minnesota.

    Ron Shapiro: He does... This is home... He wants to be a Twin for life... However, the Players Association will throw watermelons at him if he signs under value to this degree.

    Bill Smith: How far off are we?

    Ron Shapiro: Well the Yankees paid Teixeira 180 million for 8 years.

    Bill Smith: We are not the Yankees!

    Ron Shapiro: Yeah but the Yankees are the Yankees and they have my phone number.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 07-01-2012 at 01:28 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Kirby's approach at the plate was "the anti-Joe Mauer". I don't know if there are splits for Puckett, but he was a very good "bad ball" hitter. When asked what his hitting philosophy was, he stated that he didn't have a philosophy, "I just go up there hackin'". His BB% is close to Ben Revere's.

    You are largely correct about tangibles, although the last 10 years of Puck's career, when he converted himself to a power player, he averaged 20.3 HRs/YR-- Most players develop more power over time, not less-- Joe has done it once, and will likely never come close to that number again. The RBI stat has largely been discounted by modern day stat-hounds as a statistic of random/lucky opportunities, I still don't think it properly accounts for "timely hitting"- IE, Puck averaged 96 RBI/yr for his career on many more bad teams and bad hitters batting in front of him, Mauer has averaged only 69 RBI/yr, with some very good plate protection behind him. Runs scored is valued by stat-hounds, Kirby averaged 89/year, Mauer has averaged only 75/year.

    And that gets me to the intangible advantages, and Puck proved in his career that he was ready and willing to be the team leader- still waiting for Joe to step up to the plate, I hope it happens, but I remain doubtful.
    Runs scored aren't valued by stat hounds. They're the other side of the RBI coin, largely dependent on what others do behind you and little to do with your own play past "you got on base". Mauer is quite a bit better at getting on base than Puckett. It's not his fault the guys behind him aren't driving him home.

    As for RBIs, well... You're just wrong on that account. Here are the career splits for Mauer and Puckett.

    Mauer:
    RISP: .953 OPS
    Men On: .917 OPS

    Puckett:
    RISP: 879 OPS
    Men On: .874 OPS

    Naturally, Mauer also has a much better OBP in those situations.

    As for "team leaders", I don't buy into that very much (or at all, really). A single player can only do so much. Puckett had great playoff moments for sure but so much of that is luck and timing in a SSS that I can't put much weight in it (and it's not as if Mauer hasn't had his shining moments in critical situations).

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
    If you mindlessly protect Joe Mauer at every turn, you are basically a Sid Hartman simpleton type that can't think on his own.

    BTW..I don't hate Joe Mauer. I just hate everything he represents, that's all. He just isn't worth anything near 23 mill per year for 8 years. There are a lot of guys in the league that can a game with one swing of the bat, and he's not one of them.
    So I point out statistical evidence stating that Mauer is one of the best 5 players in the history of the franchise, and that if he stays healthy he will be a hall of famer, you rebuttal with calling me Sid Hartman and claim since Mauer is not a home run hitter he is not a good ball player and I am the simpleton?

    Neat.

  18. #38
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    I think if the Twins had a decent pitching staff and were in contention nobody would care what his salary was nor that he sold shampoo and beer on the side. Winning cures a lot grumbling. As a career his splits would indicate he is about the same home or away so you can't really say 6 years of the Metrodome inflated his numbers.
    y

    Direct Link · Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · PRE · LINK · ?

    I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip ▾ tOPS+
    Away 478 457 2096 1819 289 590 129 8 49 277 22 1 253 221 .324 .405 .485 .890 882 49 5 1 18 49 16 .345 103
    Home 509 483 2108 1821 293 588 104 9 39 261 16 11 251 203 .323 .404 .454 .858 827 72 11 2 23 42 15 .343 97
    No one ball player is ever worth a quarter of the team's payroll unless the farm system is cranking out two decent players a year. The Twins are not doing the latter.
    Last edited by old nurse; 07-01-2012 at 01:05 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
    If you mindlessly protect Joe Mauer at every turn, you are basically a Sid Hartman simpleton type that can't think on his own.

    BTW..I don't hate Joe Mauer. I just hate everything he represents, that's all. He just isn't worth anything near 23 mill per year for 8 years. There are a lot of guys in the league that can a game with one swing of the bat, and he's not one of them.
    Riiiiiight. We're "mindlessly protecting" Joe by saying that he's a very, very good baseball player and backing that up with statistics and player comps that show he is, in fact, a very, very good baseball player.

    Objectively looking at the situation, I'd say Dave and I are doing the exact opposite of what you just said.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
    BTW..I don't hate Joe Mauer. I just hate everything he represents, that's all. He just isn't worth anything near 23 mill per year for 8 years. There are a lot of guys in the league that can a game with one swing of the bat, and he's not one of them.
    But he was worth that type of Money at the time. The Twins didn't set the pay scale. The Yankees and the Red Sox and the teams that shop Free Agent's R Us set the pay scale.

    Mauer was Worth 23 Million at the time... Do you really expect Joe Mauer to settle for a lower figure to stay in Minnesota? That would be stupid?

    The only thing the Twins could have done differently is wait until the end of his contract to negotiate a contract and maybe his 2010 year would have brought the value down but that's a real big maybe.

    2009 was a huge year and if he repeats it in 2010. That 23 Million becomes much larger and now you have to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox to retain him.

    I think it's possible that Bill Smith made some mistakes during his regime. Joe Mauer's Contract was pretty much a no brainer at the time. It only looks bad using that 20-20 hindsight thing.

    Don't hate Mauer... Hate the Yankees... That's what I do... and it feels much better to hate the Yankees BTW.

    The Yankees are perhaps the most obvious example of why salaries are where they are. They out bid teams for the services of players and that drives the prices up.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 07-01-2012 at 01:37 PM.

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