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Thread: Attention Mauer Haters!

  1. #201
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Wow. Using the true Father of Psychology(it certainly wasn't the non-scientific Sigmund Freud), BF Skinner, to outline how certain stimuli are used to build, strengthen and maintain a desired outcome (call it poise if you're more comfortable with that, the Yankess used "winning attitude") and still "patronizing" and not "taken seriously". Okay.....
    This whole paragraph is patronizing (The "true Father," for example). You're not the only one whose taken a handful of psychology classes or read a book. BF Skinner and his behaviorists are looked at with total suspicion these days, but I'm sure you know that. BF Skinner is about as 'scientific' as aromatherapy, in any case there's nothing in your post that evidences your points about baseball, you're merely educating us on points most of us are pretty familiar with.

    I don't recall where I used either of the quotes you attribute to me, as neither of those quotes have anything to do with my point. Having said that in regards at meeting the other side half way, I am fully in favor of using statistical analysis, it is a tool but it just shouldn't be a bible. Human behavior can never likely be fully quantified.
    You didn't use those quotes, I'm making fun of you to show the ridiculous slippery slope you've created. And it's obvious to so many here (again, hence why you are patronizing) that human behavior can't be quantified.

    Look, you'll get a lot further in discussions if you stop assuming that the other posters here aren't as well-read and smart as you. Heck, I'm probably on your side in this argument (at least in spirit), but you're posts are so sloppy and disingenuous that it makes my skin curdle.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 07-03-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    I keep complaining about his groundball rate but it should be concerning.

    But I'd be lying if those numbers didn't give me a lot of hope for the future.

    The GB% number really stands out like a potential sore thumb. It is so far off his career norm, it's surprising more teams aren't putting on the Blue Jays-style shift for him. If more teams would do it, that might force Mauer to address this situation more readily. His current BABIP is 373 versus a career BABIP of 344. How many of Mauer's seeing-eye 5 bounce singles will begin to be fielded when more teams study Mauer's batting chart? His lucky BABIP should begin to regress back. Time for more line drives....the very recent eye test suggests that the LD rate is going up, or at least his swing is at a slightly higher trajectory. His strikeout rate is also going up even as his BA and OPS continue to climb, which hopefully indicates a more agressive approach than earlier in the season. I hope these are indicators for a glass half full scenario.
    Last edited by jokin; 07-03-2012 at 01:51 PM.

  3. #203
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    I wasn't guessing. I was illustrating the levels of screening that these players go under before even reaching the majors. Is it 1%? .1%? I don't know and I really don't care. My only point is that it's a damned small percentage because just to make it to the MLB level and succeed for any amount of time, a player will have to be somewhat immune to the ups and downs of professional play (ie. "pressure"). Are rookies more susceptible to such a thing? Sure, I'd agree with that, just as stepping into any new role is a little unsettling for a person.
    Well, the attribute's value would be relative to the rest of population of baseball players, so whatever minimal percentage you want to assign, it should still have a tangible affect in even an elite population. Pardon the glib example: If everyone has 99 Poise, the guy with 98 Poise is the ****ty non clutchy guy, right?

    Anyway, this was never my point in the first place. My argument rests mainly in the belief that players can play above their normal level of play, not that they can play below it. Failing is easy. Succeeding is far more difficult.
    I totally agree, hence my evoking (or failing to) the word 'poise' into the conversation. No one's going to get better under pressure, they will simply maintain their poise. I think we're on the same page, mostly.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    This whole paragraph is patronizing (The "true Father," for example). You're not the only one whose taken a handful of psychology classes or read a book. BF Skinner and his behaviorists are looked at with total suspicion these days, but I'm sure you know that. BF Skinner is about as 'scientific' as aromatherapy, in any case there's nothing in your post that evidences your points about baseball, you're merely educating us on points most of us are pretty familiar with.

    You didn't use those quotes, I'm making fun of you to show the ridiculous slippery slope you've created. And it's obvious to so many here (again, hence why you are patronizing) that human behavior can't be quantified.

    Look, you'll get a lot further in discussions if you stop assuming that the other posters here aren't as well-read and smart as you. Heck, I'm probably on your side in this argument (at least in spirit), but you're posts are so sloppy and disingenuous that it makes my skin curdle.
    Sorry for the skin-curdling. I have a strong feeling that you get "patronized" easily and enjoy back-patronization immensely.

    That BF Skinner did not revolutionize how the "science" of psychology is regarded, that today's psychologists haven't built the discipline on some of the foundations he established, to deny that many of those foundations are still the central focus of the discipline in college textbooks and to somehow suggest that Skinner is merely an aromatherapist is pure poppycock, and I think you know it ( probably more of your "making fun of me" by concocting ridiculous quotes that had no relevance to what I had said- yeah, solid evidence there, too). I guess it's official now, you've officially stated that the basic tenets of learning theory must all be thrown out because the discipline has evolved. And calling prose "sloppy and disingenuous" without evidence is, what would you call it, again? Disingenuous and sloppy.

  5. #205
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I think I heard Pseudo's head explode reading that.....

  6. #206
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Sorry for the skin-curdling. I have a strong feeling that you get "patronized" easily and enjoy back-patronization immensely.

    That BF Skinner did not revolutionize how the "science" of psychology is regarded, that today's psychologists haven't built the discipline on some of the foundations he established, to deny that many of those foundations are still the central focus of the discipline in college textbooks and to somehow suggest that Skinner is merely an aromatherapist is pure poppycock, and I think you know it ( probably more of your "making fun of me" by concocting ridiculous quotes that had no relevance to what I had said- yeah, solid evidence there, too). I guess it's official now, you've officially stated that the basic tenets of learning theory must all be thrown out because the discipline has evolved. And calling prose "sloppy and disingenuous" without evidence is, what would you call it, again? Disingenuous and sloppy.
    I'm not denying Skinner's influence on psychology; I'm denying his applicability to the argument and that behaviorism is something new to anyone here. I wonder what Lacan or Irigaray would say about the yips (or rather, who cares).

    I'll stop now. Apologies to the non-snark crowd.

  7. #207
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fetch View Post
    Probably, but I doubt that says anything about how good of a player he is. I'm sure there are a lot of players of the Albert Pujols ilk who would be happy with a walk and players like Jeff Francoeur who would be pissed.
    Agreed... It has nothing to do with Talent level in my opinion and it could be Pujols and Francoeur as examples. But this is the starting point in my opinion of determining the make up of a player.

    After that... you factor in the "When does a player feel that pressure and it's different for everyone and it can't be quantified.

    Then Factor in: Even if Francouer wants that job... Will he be confident and put a good swing on the ball or will he get over aggressive and wave at 3 pitchers around his eyeballs.


    I think the only way to overcome this pressure thing is to put yourself under it all the time. Treat every game during the season and every at bat like it's the 7th game of the World Series. Think of it as training yourself for the moment.

    It's easy to say and nearly impossible to implement. 162 games in a year... Complacent Play, Self Doubt, Over Confidence and dealing with failure more often then success is a major part of the game.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    ...I'll stop now. Apologies to the non-snark crowd.
    The non-snark crowd? Where do they hang out?

  9. #209
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    Mauer has the identical OPS in the two spot that he does hitting third.

    But I see no reason for his BA to fall. His BABIP is a little high but not really that high for Joe Mauer.
    I'm talking about his .363 BA over the past 42 games, it's pretty hard to maintain an average that high for that long of a period, and his BABIP in June and July have been rather high thus far.

    The thought that Mauer's numbers would somehow worsen if he was moved to the 2 hole is laughable. If anything he may see more walks if everyone else suddenly starts to suck.

  10. #210
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm talking about his .363 BA over the past 42 games, it's pretty hard to maintain an average that high for that long of a period, and his BABIP in June and July have been rather high thus far.

    The thought that Mauer's numbers would somehow worsen if he was moved to the 2 hole is laughable. If anything he may see more walks if everyone else suddenly starts to suck.
    Ah, yes. That .363 BA will probably drop.

  11. #211
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    The non-snark crowd? Where do they hang out?
    Well, my sarcasm has been lost on at least one poster .

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Well, my sarcasm has been lost on at least one poster .
    I know how you feel

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Why does the BA have to come down? If he increases his LD% closer to career norms I think his average can go higher. But there are 2 reasons why he couldn't keep it up- his health and a possible reconfiguration of the roster (ie, trading of Span and/or someone else, Mauer failing to adjust when moved to the 2 hole where he historically hasn't hit as well, Revere falling into a slump like last year, prolonged slumps or injuries by whoever else bats in front of, or behind him in the order). That's the glass half empty perspective anyway.
    His LD% has been at (and even just slightly--probably not significantly differently--above) his career level all year (and also his "glory" years). The change has been the increased GB% at the expense of the FB% coming down.

    As pointed out (sorta), over the last 4 full seasons (this year he has only 3 ABs in the 2-slot) his OPS in the second spot is higher than his overall. Although he only has about a third of a season's worth of work there.

  14. #214
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    His LD% has been at (and even just slightly--probably not significantly differently--above) his career level all year (and also his "glory" years). The change has been the increased GB% at the expense of the FB% coming down.

    As pointed out (sorta), over the last 4 full seasons (this year he has only 3 ABs in the 2-slot) his OPS in the second spot is higher than his overall. Although he only has about a third of a season's worth of work there.
    Does anyone think that Joe Mauer would change his approach at the plate if slotted #2. It would be crazy if he would cuz his approach while batting in the #3 is about what you look for in a #2.

    I'm not talking about individual at-bats to different situations. I'm talking overall.

    Joe in the #2... Just makes sense... Even if the only reason is that he will see 15 more at-bats hitting #2 as compared to #3 and everyone else can move up one spot in the order.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm talking about his .363 BA over the past 42 games, it's pretty hard to maintain an average that high for that long of a period, and his BABIP in June and July have been rather high thus far.
    How filthy ridiculous is it that he hit that for an entire season!?!

    Without checking, the thing that strikes me about the last few weeks is that Mauer's gotten back to something I've mentioned elsewhere on this site. What I've always been amazed by and enjoyed watching over the years is that almost every single at-bat results in a ball hit squarely. Outs or hits or fly-balls or grounders or line drives, he would work the pitcher until he scaled one somewhere. That had been much less the case last year when he was clearly not healthy and still not quite like the days up through 2010 at the start of this year. Lately it feels like (yes, I hate that phrase usually, too) he's gotten back closer to that. Work, work, work, work, SMACK the ball somewhere.

  16. #216
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    How filthy ridiculous is it that he hit that for an entire season!?!

    Without checking, the thing that strikes me about the last few weeks is that Mauer's gotten back to something I've mentioned elsewhere on this site. What I've always been amazed by and enjoyed watching over the years is that almost every single at-bat results in a ball hit squarely. Outs or hits or fly-balls or grounders or line drives, he would work the pitcher until he scaled one somewhere. That had been much less the case last year when he was clearly not healthy and still not quite like the days up through 2010 at the start of this year. Lately it feels like (yes, I hate that phrase usually, too) he's gotten back closer to that. Work, work, work, work, SMACK the ball somewhere.
    It's not a term you'll see me throw around often because of its non-sabrness but Joe has a brilliant "baseball mind" and the skills to back it up. He goes to the plate with a methodical approach and thanks to his ability, can sit there and annoy the pitcher into giving him what he wants. His AB against Chapman in the ninth was a perfect example of that ability.

  17. #217
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    It's not a term you'll see me throw around often because of its non-sabrness but Joe has a brilliant "baseball mind" and the skills to back it up. He goes to the plate with a methodical approach and thanks to his ability, can sit there and annoy the pitcher into giving him what he wants. His AB against Chapman in the ninth was a perfect example of that ability.
    When I think of Joe... I think of the Sweet Swing... Flawless... Best in baseball... Or at least that I've seen.

    When it comes to Joe and his power. I still believe that's it's possible to see it again. He hit's the ball hard enough. So we are talking about a slight adjustment to the angle of his swing. I don't think it's a leg strength issue.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by kydoty View Post
    This thread needs more Dan.
    Speaking of Dan, he still hates Mauer.

    Check out the little twitter convo he had with Rhett Bollinger today.

    https://twitter.com/Coulrophobia7/st...36611957424128

  19. #219
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwainZag View Post
    Speaking of Dan, he still hates Mauer.

    Check out the little twitter convo he had with Rhett Bollinger today.

    https://twitter.com/Coulrophobia7/st...36611957424128
    I miss our favorite St Cloud hockey blogger and part-time Winger roadie.

    Someone should invite him over here.

    Or not.

  20. #220
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
    I miss our favorite St Cloud hockey blogger and part-time Winger roadie.

    Someone should invite him over here.

    Or not.
    I think you mean "NHL '08 Franchise" blogger. I miss him in the same way I miss that pain sensation you get when you floss your teeth until your gums bleed.

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