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Thread: Terry Ryan PMKI in the SABR

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Because the Twins tailspin into oblivion is more complicated than that. Smith is a scapegoat because he's a big part of the organizational failure, but in no way is he solely responsible.

    Ryan drafted poorly in his last few years before resigning. And he was special advisor to Smith during his tenure. Ryan had the cache in the organization to question Smith's moves. Smith was GM at the time, but Ryan's hands are not clean of this mess.

    Also... Smith did sign Thome, and traded Yohan Pino for Carl Pavano.
    Ryan was and may still be one of the better GM's around, Bill Smith's tenure was nothing short of awful/poor.

    Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?

  2. #22
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Yeah, these were some interesting quotes hand-picked out of context. Self-deprecating is a good thing... Terry Ryan has proven he can handle this job. He's made good moves this year. We all know that this isn't a one-year fix. He's good.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Ryan was and may still be one of the better GM's around, Bill Smith's tenure was nothing short of awful/poor.

    Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?
    I'm not disagreeing that Smith was awful.

    My point is that Ryan DID have something to do with how awful Smith was and how awful the Twins have been for the last two years. Ryan's not innocent, and Smith isn't completely to blame.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. Need I say any more?
    By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.
    Don't you dare try to excuse that abomination of a move.

    NTM the that equal WAR has cost the Twins about 13 million while it's cost the Nats 400K.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Smith was a bad GM, no doubt. But he's a scapegoat.
    Exactly, Smith didn't have awful drafts one after the other.

    No doubt Smith made some bad moves, but IMO Deron Johnson has done more harm to this franchise to Smith.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Mr. Ed's Avatar
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    No doubt Smith made some bad moves, but IMO Deron Johnson has done more harm to this franchise to Smith.



    Agreed. He's been in charge of the drafts. Needs some of the blame.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by spideyo View Post
    I'd rather them have Terry Ryan as a stop gap measure to at least keep the ship from sinking entirely...
    ...or to keep them from trading valuable players for magic beans and shiny trinkets.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Don't you dare try to excuse that abomination of a move.

    NTM the that equal WAR has cost the Twins about 13 million while it's cost the Nats 400K.
    Perhaps, but I think it's fun to point out WAR's valuations in a thread where people are angry that the Twins (seemingly) aren't into advanced stats like WAR.

  10. #30
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    Despite the complete lack of difference making or even league average players coming up from the majors in 3+ years, Seth is still a believer in Terry Ryan. The lack of young players in the majors is on the time from when Ryan was GM. So far, he's made a couple of nice, stop gap signings and decided a cheaper, better, younger willingham was better than Cuddeyer. But that's it. This team is the same bad, underachieiving, poorly run when it comes to injuries team it was last year. If you don't change things, things don't genearlly change.
    Lighten up Francis....

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ed View Post
    Agreed. He's been in charge of the drafts. Needs some of the blame.
    Smith caught hell left and right but I've yet to see any blame going to the man running the drafts.

    Johnson is the reason the Twins have no pitching, no depth and a middle of the road MiLB system.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    By bWAR, Capps has been equal to Wilson since the trade.
    Are you making a point with this? Because as DPJ pointed out this is not even close to something that can excuse that trade.
    But since I am bored...Salaries have been pointed out already.

    -Ramos is still under team control for several more years and is still young.
    -The Twins already had a capable closer in Rauch, and had Nathan coming back for the future. NTM closer is a rather easy position to fill.
    -The Twins had no reason to trade from a position of weakness, Mauer still had injury issues at the time and you need to look no further than Drew Butera to see just who the Twins had on the depth chart behind Ramos.

    That trade was awful then, and with each year looks more and more awful.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckkJay View Post
    I am always curious if Thrylos is really a Twins fan. If you really are, WHY? I've not read a single thing from you that's positive; it seems you dislike everything about the organization. What is it about the Twins that keeps you interested?

    I'm all for balanced evaluation and critique of the Twins, but that's not what we get from Thrylos.
    I am a Twins fan and I want my team to win. So I am critical of people who are with the Twins (like Ryan and Gardenhire for example) who are not helping the team win. I think the Twins can do better. I hate what those people are doing to my team. Hope that explains it.

    What you are saying is equivalent to if you do not like your President or your congressperson you are not an American...
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  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, the more absurd I think it is that people want to run Ryan out of town.

    Its been a rough two years no doubt, but getting rid of a talented GM like Ryan is doing more harm than good (example: See what happened last time we lost Ryan)
    You think people in Oakland are calling for Billy Beane's head since they have had a few rough years?

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I am a Twins fan and I want my team to win. So I am critical of people who are with the Twins (like Ryan and Gardenhire for example) who are not helping the team win. I think the Twins can do better. I hate what those people are doing to my team. Hope that explains it.

    What you are saying is equivalent to if you do not like your President or your congressperson you are not an American...
    Can you please explain to me how Ryan is not helping this team win? What exactly was he supposed to do this off-season to turn them into a power house? What was the Thrylos98 plan of attack? ( feel free to even use hindsight in your answer on this one)

    Also, Gardy has his faults as well, but is still one of the better managers in the game, not sure exactly how he has kept this team from winning this year...unless you fault him for pitching injuries and his inability to teach Blackburn to throw 95 MPH heat.

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The more I think about it, the more absurd I think it is that people want to run Ryan out of town.

    Its been a rough two years no doubt, but getting rid of a talented GM like Ryan is doing more harm than good (example: See what happened last time we lost Ryan)
    You think people in Oakland are calling for Billy Beane's head since they have had a few rough years?
    All has to do with where you set the bar. If you accept mediocrity and are very happy with a few division wins here and there and one and outs in the postseason, then I do understand why thinking that Ryan/Gardenhire/etc are successful.

    On the other hand if you set the bar higher, you do not think that they are successful. Look at what Boston did after a disappointing (for them) season to the GM and manager that brought World Series titles to town.

    All a matter of perspective. Been long since 1991...
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  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    All has to do with where you set the bar. If you accept mediocrity and are very happy with a few division wins here and there and one and outs in the postseason, then I do understand why thinking that Ryan/Gardenhire/etc are successful.

    On the other hand if you set the bar higher, you do not think that they are successful. Look at what Boston did after a disappointing (for them) season to the GM and manager that brought World Series titles to town.

    All a matter of perspective. Been long since 1991...
    Are you saying the 2006 team didn't have enough talent to challenge or even be a favorite for a world series?
    Heck, the only year I think the Twins were completely out matched heading into the playoffs was 2008, the rest of the years they had a solid enough roster where they SHOULD have been able to compete.

    Hard to blame that on Ryan.

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    I don't think the remarks at SABR mean much of anything. BUT....

    I do believe that this organization needs a big influx of new ideas, energy and talent. And I significantly doubt that will happen with TR at the helm.

    The Twins had a good system that worked for a number of years with a low payroll team in a weak division. BUT they also seem to have fallen into a rut. And, if you look at the management staff of this organization, there is very little change.

    Terry Ryan HAS to be invested (who wouldn't be?) in the "system" that he and TK developed in the early 2000's. But times change AND unless you bring in new energy and ideas, stagnation sets in.

    Not all of the Twins management (front office and field staff) has to go. But someone with a fresh persepctive needs to be at the helm and deciding what to keep, what to modify and what to toss -- and doing it with respect to all aspects of the baseball operations (from scouting through minor leagues through coaching and managing through medical and training and more). I don't think that person is TR.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Are you making a point with this? Because as DPJ pointed out this is not even close to something that can excuse that trade.
    But since I am bored...Salaries have been pointed out already.

    -Ramos is still under team control for several more years and is still young.
    -The Twins already had a capable closer in Rauch, and had Nathan coming back for the future. NTM closer is a rather easy position to fill.
    -The Twins had no reason to trade from a position of weakness, Mauer still had injury issues at the time and you need to look no further than Drew Butera to see just who the Twins had on the depth chart behind Ramos.

    That trade was awful then, and with each year looks more and more awful.
    Oh, hell, why not. John Sickels said of it at the time: Capps reinforces the Twins bullpen for the stretch run. Testa isn't a prospect, but Ramos definitely is. I have some misgivings about his bat due to his sketchy plate discipline, but his glove has really come around and his power potential remains impressive. I like him, but not enough to pan the trade from Minnesota's point of view; I think it is fair for both teams. In my Shadow Twins universe, I will make this trade.

    To your points:

    - Ramos is under team control but is hurt, a problem he always had. Baseball America noted that at the time of the trade: "The Twins had issues with his conditioning, and he's heavier than the above indicates. He's a base-clogger and well-below-average runner." They dropped him 30 spots in their prospect ranking after that. Twins fans seem to think Ramos is the second coming of Johnny Bench or something. He hits 8th in an NL lineup. In truth, he's a league avg catcher if he stays healthy. Washington Post was writing about his defensive regressions prior to his season ending injury.
    - Twins dropped 10 games in standings in summer 2010 and bad bullpen was a major reason. Nathan wasn't coming back in 2010 (and really, he wasn't all that good at the start of 2011 either). Twins credited Capps with stabilizing the pen for them. Fangraphs noted that Capps was easily the Twins best bullpen arm.
    - Catcher wasn't a position of weakness, they had a HOF caliber catcher making Ramos a nice luxury that a team in win-now mode didn't need.

    As I pointed out, WAR value makes the trade a wash, although hopefully the Twins still move Capps for something this year.

  20. #40
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    It thought the most baffling quote was:--robneyer ‏@robneyer When it comes to amateur pitchers, Terry Ryan not a big fan of change-ups and curveballs.-- What the hell does is that supposed to mean? The Twins jut about demand everyone in the system learn the change-up. Is he saying that he doesn't like pitchers to throw it BEFORE they come to the Twins so they can learn how to throw it the "right" way? Or is he saying he doesn't like the change-up but people within the organization circumvent his stratagy by teaching it to the kids anyway?
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 06-29-2012 at 03:06 PM.

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