Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 123

Thread: Article: What Would a Francisco Liriano Trade Look Like?

  1. #41
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,693
    Like
    157
    Liked 614 Times in 342 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Where else are the Twins going to get a starter with higher upside over the next 3 yrs? What would you rather see them spend that money on?.
    I would rather see Baker, even off of TJ surgery, make 4/32 than Liriano. As Storm posted above. We're five years removed from Liriano's surgery and only once has he posted the numbers you insist are possible. And in at least two full seasons he has been arguably one of the worst starters in all of baseball.

    At what point of inconsistency (and I would argue - reliable awfulness) does a long term contract not become a bad move?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    840
    Like
    415
    Liked 77 Times in 58 Posts
    If you read back in this thread, MWW, you WILL find that "trade him for anything you can get message." And exactly what strawman argument did YOU see? THAT's the thing I missed.

    There are several viable options, including offering a fair three-year deal, trading him for Dan Hudson level return, offering him arbitration and either living with the compensation pick or living with his expensive presence, and perhaps dangling him again at next year's trade deadline. Those are reasonable options. The option that is unreasonable comes from the "dump him for anything crowd, and that crowd does in fact exist.

  3. #43
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,693
    Like
    157
    Liked 614 Times in 342 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    There are several viable options, including offering a fair three-year deal, trading him for Dan Hudson level return, offering him arbitration and either living with the compensation pick or living with his expensive presence, and perhaps dangling him again at next year's trade deadline. Those are reasonable options. The option that is unreasonable comes from the "dump him for anything crowd, and that crowd does in fact exist.
    You're taking the point to the extreme. Liriano, if healthy and semi-competent, will have some value. If we have the opportunity to trade him and get value this year - it's better than letting him walk for nothing. The offseason's most likely scenario is him NOT returning. It's far more ridiculous to hope he'll take some team-friendly deal than it is to just want him gone and take what should likely be a decent offer this year.

  4. #44
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,495
    Like
    3,515
    Liked 3,014 Times in 1,280 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I would rather see Baker, even off of TJ surgery, make 4/32 than Liriano. As Storm posted above. We're five years removed from Liriano's surgery and only once has he posted the numbers you insist are possible. And in at least two full seasons he has been arguably one of the worst starters in all of baseball.

    At what point of inconsistency (and I would argue - reliable awfulness) does a long term contract not become a bad move?
    At what point of having no possibility of an above average pitcher in the rotation does not taking a chance on Liriano become a bad move?

    He has unquestionably the best stuff of any pitcher in the Twins system, rookie ball to the majors. That seems to me the guy you take a chance on, not Scott Baker coming of TJ, or hoping to snag another couple Jason Marquis types to round out the Blackburn, Diamond, Walters trio topping the rotation next year.

    A three yr contract that doesn't work out would hurt the Twins, but not cripple them. A three year contract where he pitches anything close to his potential would be a bargain, and give them a number one, or two, starter, that they need no matter whether they're hoping to compete in 2013 or 2015.

    And despite your usual over-the-top schtick, "realiable awfulness" is exactly what Liriano ISN'T. Inconsistent? Yes. But he's always had flashes of brilliance, even in his bad seasons. I certainly don't know if he can become consistent, but I'd much rather gamble on that than gamble on something that you already know won't ever be better than 'decent.'

  5. #45
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,495
    Like
    3,515
    Liked 3,014 Times in 1,280 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    If you read back in this thread, MWW, you WILL find that "trade him for anything you can get message." And exactly what strawman argument did YOU see? THAT's the thing I missed.

    There are several viable options, including offering a fair three-year deal, trading him for Dan Hudson level return, offering him arbitration and either living with the compensation pick or living with his expensive presence, and perhaps dangling him again at next year's trade deadline. Those are reasonable options. The option that is unreasonable comes from the "dump him for anything crowd, and that crowd does in fact exist.
    Well said.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
    Posts
    4,139
    Twitter
    @thrylos98
    Like
    34
    Liked 433 Times in 263 Posts
    Blog Entries
    200
    I think that the comparison between the returns in the Jackson and Lohse trades is very interesting and teaches a good lesson: Hudson was doing well in AAA for a couple of seasons and had a couple cups of September coffee with the Sux, while Maloney had just gotten up to AA when they were traded. It was obvious that Hudson was MLB-ready, whereas Maloney had "potential". So if the interim goes after MLB-ready players over "potential", he can do better (and at least will have bodies for the 2013 rotation.)

    One note: I think that FranKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKie is much better pitcher than Jackson.

    About that "offering him arbitration" talk: With the new CBA, the Twins have to offer a contract of at least 1 yr $12.5 M to get a comp. pick if he signs elsewhere. I doubt they do that.
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
    http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/
    twitter: @thrylos98

  7. #47
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,693
    Like
    157
    Liked 614 Times in 342 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    At what point of having no possibility of an above average pitcher in the rotation does not taking a chance on Liriano become a bad move?
    Baker was above average recently. And he has less history being awful...why not him? His stuff isn't as electric, but he also hasn't been nearly as bad as Liriano has been.

    And despite your usual over-the-top schtick, "realiable awfulness" is exactly what Liriano ISN'T. Inconsistent? Yes. But he's always had flashes of brilliance, even in his bad seasons. I certainly don't know if he can become consistent, but I'd much rather gamble on that than gamble on something that you already know won't ever be better than 'decent.'
    2009 and 2011 were awful. That's two out of the last three and then an awful start this year. And this year he has ranged from brutal to pretty good. Unfortunately, until Monday night, his pretty good starts had all been against offenses in the bottom five of the league. Maybe that was coincidence, but maybe not. No one is denying that Frankie has talent. But you basically want to give him guaranteed money out of nothing more than hope. I find that to be a pretty poor way to operate a baseball team.

  8. #48
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
    Posts
    1,260
    Like
    77
    Liked 311 Times in 151 Posts
    CC and Pettit both go on the DL today, perfect time to get max out of Frankie, after a very good start and a team in need with assets. Ryan call the Yankees today!

  9. #49
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,024
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    47
    Liked 1,522 Times in 796 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    CC and Pettit both go on the DL today, perfect time to get max out of Frankie, after a very good start and a team in need with assets. Ryan call the Yankees today!
    Well, that's certainly intriguing.

  10. #50
    Owner All-Star Parker Hageman's Avatar
    Posts
    1,047
    Twitter
    @ParkerHageman
    Like
    2
    Liked 63 Times in 33 Posts
    Blog Entries
    228
    I also find it interesting that I write about Daniel Hudson and today we learn that his UCL has crapped out.

  11. #51
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
    Posts
    4,139
    Twitter
    @thrylos98
    Like
    34
    Liked 433 Times in 263 Posts
    Blog Entries
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Hageman View Post
    I also find it interesting that I write about Daniel Hudson and today we learn that his UCL has crapped out.
    Gotta write about Verlander, Cabrera (both the drunk and Assdribble), Fielder, miscallenous WSux players, etc... keep it to the division
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
    http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/
    twitter: @thrylos98

  12. #52
    Senior Member Triple-A Dilligaf69's Avatar
    Posts
    363
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
    There is zero chance Frankie signs with the Twins long term. What can the Twins offer: a losing team, terrible pitching coach and a medical staff that causes more injuries than they prevent.

    Frankie must be traded but sadly the game has passed Terry Ryan by and he will sit around and lose him with zero compensatio.

    C'mon really????

  13. #53
    Senior Member Triple-A Dilligaf69's Avatar
    Posts
    363
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Hageman View Post
    I also find it interesting that I write about Daniel Hudson and today we learn that his UCL has crapped out.

    Oh i thought only the Twins med staff was incompetent and cause UCL injuries, maybe the D backs hired a former Twins trainer and it's his fault.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
    Posts
    1,088
    Like
    134
    Liked 176 Times in 85 Posts
    Quick question - I've heard a lot about how Liriano is unlikely to return to the Twins unless the team throws big money at him. Why is that? Is this an assumption being made because the Twins aren't a good team at the moment? But what if you walk and your options end up being the Cubs and Mariners?

    Unless a winning team has expressed a desire for Liriano, or Liriano has expressed a desire to go to a winning team at a discount, about the only other thing I can think of is that he doesn't want to be a Twin anymore. Do we know this for sure? If so, trade him for sure.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Triple-A Dilligaf69's Avatar
    Posts
    363
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I would'nt hate a 2-3 yr deal, what's he making this yr...$10 mil. 2yr/$22 mil or 3/$30, they have about $20 mil or so coming off don't they?? If the Jays are really interested in Justin that's another $13 mil even if the Twins eat a 1/3rd of his salary for next yr that's still plenty of $$ fo a FA starter. It also allows Parm to actually play, I'm not saying i want to trade Morneau but it makes sense if your trying to rebuild your rotation and FA or trade will get it done not waiting for the young kids. Span is another $5 mil off the books if you can trade him.

  16. #56
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,495
    Like
    3,515
    Liked 3,014 Times in 1,280 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Baker was above average recently. And he has less history being awful...why not him? His stuff isn't as electric, but he also hasn't been nearly as bad as Liriano has been.
    Baker had TJ a couple months ago. There's no guarantee he will even pitch in the major leagues in 2013, and if he does, the chances he resembles his former self in his first year back are extremely low. Baker is also under a team option for 2013, and the chances the Twins pick that up are next to zero. Maybe he signs for significantly less, but if (when) the Twins decline that option, he's no longer under their control.

  17. #57
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    8,672
    Like
    4,726
    Liked 2,206 Times in 1,243 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    I would love Terry Ryan's Job... At least I think I would... Maybe it has a private hell that the public doesn't see.

    If I had Terry Ryan's Job... Liriano would be keeping me awake at night. His inconsistency has been too great but his stuff is also great. The Twins desperately need pitching and if you are searching for arms and need to try arms out looking for gems. Liriano fits that mold. But, Liriano is just too big a risk based on how bad he gets in long stretches.

    More time is needed to make this call. Right now... I wouldn't bring him back... If he's still pitching like this in August. I'd still have to drive a knife through my eyeball fretting over it.

  18. #58
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,625
    Like
    1,121
    Liked 535 Times in 354 Posts
    I saw 1 person say "trade him for anything", and a whole lot (lost count) saying to trade him for value. Whatever, i"m not interested in a back and forth argument. Most rational fans want players traded for something of value. And, in this case, I'd agree. This team is bad, really, really bad. It was really, really bad last year. They are not the kind of team to go out and get big time expensive players in trade or FA, so to me, the most likely path for this particular GM and ownership group is to trade veterans for young guys. IF I thought they'd sign a Greinke, or trade for that type of player, maybe you keep Liriano. But I just don't see it.

    I'm baffled that anyone thinks Baker is a realistic option for next year, given that he just had TJ surgery. That's the part of this thread that confuses me.

  19. #59
    Has anyone else noticed that Frankie has actually stopped listening to Anderson? His motion has become much more like it was before he got hurt. It is much more violent again which explains the nasty bite on the slider and his average fastball sitting at 92-94 instead of 89-91. With all that being said, someone will overpay for Liriano especially if he has five more good starts leading up to the deadline. Take what you can now, like you should have done when Delmon Young had his best year!!

  20. #60
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,693
    Like
    157
    Liked 614 Times in 342 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Baker had TJ a couple months ago. There's no guarantee he will even pitch in the major leagues in 2013, and if he does, the chances he resembles his former self in his first year back are extremely low. Baker is also under a team option for 2013, and the chances the Twins pick that up are next to zero. Maybe he signs for significantly less, but if (when) the Twins decline that option, he's no longer under their control.
    The team could reject the option and sign a different extension. But your points on why he is a risk are valid, however the problem is that none of these arguments are all that much more convincing than the same I'm making against Liriano. Yes, Baker is likely to be a mystery next year with a good chance of being a bad investment. But in that second year, like some other starters who have had TJ, he could be even better than he has been. (And he's been better than people think) But as you say....why not risk a little money on that? The difference, in my eyes with Baker, is that he hasn't been nearly as awful as Liriano has been prone to being.

    Just to put it in context, there were only 9 pitchers with a worse ERA in 2011 than Liriano with more than 120 IP. Only 12 with a worse WHIP. His K/BB ratio was only .08 better than Nick friggin Blackburn. His most comparable current pitcher is Dice-K over his current career. I can go on. We're not "idiots" for wanting to avoid giving our personal Dice-K a guaranteed 40 million. He'll have some value, let's cash in on it.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.