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Thread: Doumit Extension

  1. #21
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    I think resigning Doumit would be a good idea. Looking at the list previously posted and assuming McCann stays in Atlanta. The only one I would want is Miguel Montero. I would also want Napoli but he will be too overpriced for us. The rest are way past their prime or never had a prime. Koyie Hill, Jeff Mathis, Yorvit Torrealba, Ronny Paulino, Humberto Quintero??? Wouldn't Drew Butera fall into that catergory too? Can't hit a lick, can't run, and calls a good game. Having Doumit either in the lineup as a DH, or behind the plate, or in the OF sounds like better options than the rest of these guys.

  2. #22
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fetch View Post
    If he's really willing to sign a 2 year, 10 million deal they should be sprinting to get that done
    I'd do that deal twice if I was the Twins.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    I'm a little torn on this. Doumit is known for a better than average bat and horrible defense no matter where he plays, thus he was supposed to by DHing and backup catching. I never want to see him in RF or 1B (or anywhere else). He's also know as injury prone (ask the pirates)-- he's already nursing a calf strain and has hardly been run out to catch every day. This makes it all the more judicious to sign again as only a backup C and get the majority of his time at DH. Yet, there are better DHs to be had. So, do we like him because he's primarily a DH with some C versatility such that we don't have to see Butera in the lineup 2a couple times a week? I'm taking a wait and see approach for another few weeks, and I think TR and the front office are doing the same, making sure this one year make-good contract (to show he can be healthy for a season) is good for the Twins going forward.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Not sure how I feel about this either... For one, unless either Butera is gone or Gardenhire is willing to PH Doumit for him in games like last night's (or, of course, unless Gardenhire is gone, but not sure that I believe in miracles) this team will not get enough value from Doumit for what they pay him. The other this is that this would be a totally schizophrenic decision, if you look it in the context that this team is having a rookie who is the worse hitter on the team keep playing SS. You either go wholesale young and give people like Herrmann a chance or you go veteran. This half-rear end approach is bothersome.
    So if Doumit is going to be a UT player is he worth $4-5 mil a season? Probably not, but this is the team that paid Punto about that much...
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  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Fan From Afar View Post
    I'm not completely seeing the wisdom here, unless it is on the lower range of the financial spectrum. Yes, Doumit has been good this year on a bad team, yes he has had clutch hits, and yes he has stayed healthy.

    But for 2013 or 2014 I would expect Chris Herrmann, currently at AA and playing all right (though not tearing it up right now) to take on the back-up catcher role. Herrmann can also play left field. He's also a better catcher than Doumit, incidentally. He has to be added to the 40 man after this season. He hopefully can do 70-80 percent of Doumit's job for about 10 percent of the salary. On a team that should be moving in the direction of trading veterans for prospects and giving young guys a shot, I'm not sure that Doumit makes a whole lot of sense.

    So, if the Twins do lock up Doumit for the next 2-3 seasons, I hope that the contract is such that Doumit remains a tradeable asset.

    I agree with what you are saying, of course, but Herrmann is likely not going to break camp with the Twins next year (though he is starting to right the BB/K ship over the past two weeks) and so there is that hole there that is not reasonably filled with any other C free agent for a better price. Also, I don't really have a problem with a Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann group on the roster instead of having Drew Butera involved as anything else but AAA help for upcoming pitchers. The first two are injury risks and all three can play multiple positions (I wonder if Herrmann can add RF and/or 1B). That especially makes sense if Morneau is not with the Twins in 2013 (and more likely certainly gone by 2014). Herrmann is also hitting lefties strangely well in a SSS at New Britain (for what it's worth).

    I guess I would prefer overpaying for a one-year extension (even at $6-7 million) instead of a two-year extension ($8-10 million), but whatever. If he likes playing for the Twins, keep him.

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Not sure how I feel about this either... For one, unless either Butera is gone or Gardenhire is willing to PH Doumit for him in games like last night's (or, of course, unless Gardenhire is gone, but not sure that I believe in miracles) this team will not get enough value from Doumit for what they pay him. The other this is that this would be a totally schizophrenic decision, if you look it in the context that this team is having a rookie who is the worse hitter on the team keep playing SS. You either go wholesale young and give people like Herrmann a chance or you go veteran. This half-rear end approach is bothersome.
    So if Doumit is going to be a UT player is he worth $4-5 mil a season? Probably not, but this is the team that paid Punto about that much...
    I agree that it is pretty murky, but characterizing Doumit as a utility player is not really accurate. I wouldn't call the primary DH and backup catcher a utility guy. And his value as such is probably a bit more than $5 million a season. It looks like it is this year at least.

    As far as Dozier goes, outside of Florimon, I am not sure what else there is to do (Casilla is not an improvement).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    I agree with what you are saying, of course, but Herrmann is likely not going to break camp with the Twins next year (though he is starting to right the BB/K ship over the past two weeks) and so there is that hole there that is not reasonably filled with any other C free agent for a better price. Also, I don't really have a problem with a Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann group on the roster instead of having Drew Butera involved as anything else but AAA help for upcoming pitchers. The first two are injury risks and all three can play multiple positions (I wonder if Herrmann can add RF and/or 1B). That especially makes sense if Morneau is not with the Twins in 2013 (and more likely certainly gone by 2014). Herrmann is also hitting lefties strangely well in a SSS at New Britain (for what it's worth).

    I guess I would prefer overpaying for a one-year extension (even at $6-7 million) instead of a two-year extension ($8-10 million), but whatever. If he likes playing for the Twins, keep him.
    Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota, so it's certainly worth considering the set of conditions under which Doumit both stays and his contract remains tradeable.

    It's kind of crazy to think that next season this team could be spending $28 million on the catching position alone.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Fan From Afar View Post
    Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota, so it's certainly worth considering the set of conditions under which Doumit both stays and his contract remains tradeable.

    It's kind of crazy to think that next season this team could be spending $28 million on the catching position alone.
    Well it isn't the "catching position alone" given that they are both going to be in the lineup together most of the time. Also, with regard to having Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann all on the roster . . . it seems less odd if one considers it from the best 13 position players angle and adds in the possibility that A: Joe Benson and Rene Tosoni may not be MLB serviceable until ???, B: someone from this Willingham-Span-Revere OF might be traded, and C: Plouffe isn't likely headed back to the OF. It's possible to have a bench with Herrmann and Valencia on it next year, which might make sense.

  9. #29
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    If the Twins were gonna be a playoff type team then hell yeah I'd sign him for 2/10. But it's not the backup catcher/DH is gonna make or break the Twins the next couple seasons as they rebuild. He's a nice piece to have around, but that shouldn't stand in the way exploring his market this trade deadline and moving him his ass if the deal is right.

  10. #30
    Assuming wins are worth 4 million or so per then Doumit is definitely worth it (so was Punto by the way). Plus he would definitely be a desirable asset in a trade with that type of deal.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Well it isn't the "catching position alone" given that they are both going to be in the lineup together most of the time. Also, with regard to having Mauer-Doumit-Herrmann all on the roster . . . it seems less odd if one considers it from the best 13 position players angle and adds in the possibility that A: Joe Benson and Rene Tosoni may not be MLB serviceable until ???, B: someone from this Willingham-Span-Revere OF might be traded, and C: Plouffe isn't likely headed back to the OF. It's possible to have a bench with Herrmann and Valencia on it next year, which might make sense.
    Good points. I should note that from what I have seen Herrmann is pretty decent in left field, and of course has a good arm. A roster with Mauer, Doumit and Herrmann certainly provides a lot of flexibility for the manager without the risk that that day's catcher is going to be hitting .170.
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  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post

    As far as Dozier goes, outside of Florimon, I am not sure what else there is to do (Casilla is not an improvement).
    Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Fan From Afar View Post
    Yea, agreed that Herrmann might not be ready to start 2013 in Minnesota
    Agreed

    But my point is:

    -Dozier is not ready to start in 2012 in Minnesota (maybe he could be in 2013,) and is starting.
    -2/3 of the 2013 starting rotation will not be ready to start in Minnesota in 2013, but they will be starting.
    -Signing to 2-year extension the teams' DH and maybe back up Catcher is not a priority (esp. for $5M a year), given the state of the rotation. Worse comes to worse, Morneau can be the DH and Parmelee (who is rotting on the bench for some weird reason, btw) the first baseman. And Gardy will play Butera as the back up C anyways...
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.

    Lets not make it seem like Casilla has been getting some type of shaft from the organization and the fan base. He's a 27 year old .251/.307/.335 career hitter who can't stay healthly and is a spotty defender at best.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Agreed

    But my point is:

    -Dozier is not ready to start in 2012 in Minnesota (maybe he could be in 2013,) and is starting.
    -2/3 of the 2013 starting rotation will not be ready to start in Minnesota in 2013, but they will be starting.
    -Signing to 2-year extension the teams' DH and maybe back up Catcher is not a priority (esp. for $5M a year), given the state of the rotation. Worse comes to worse, Morneau can be the DH and Parmelee (who is rotting on the bench for some weird reason, btw) the first baseman. And Gardy will play Butera as the back up C anyways...
    I agree with all of that, thrylos. If this is a rebuild -- which it seems like it should be -- there's no shame in letting half a dozen "not ready for primetime" players figure it out next season up in Minnesota.

    I think there's a big difference of opinion between fans (heck, probably between members of the front office) about what direction this team is going to take for 2013.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Lets not make it seem like Casilla has been getting some type of shaft from the organization and the fan base. He's a 27 year old .251/.307/.335 career hitter who can't stay healthly and is a spotty defender at best.
    Have you looked at Dozier's slash line recently or look at the defensive metrics of Casilla vs Dozier this season?
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  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Casilla is an improvement. He has been hitting better than Dozier and he has been the Twins' best IF fielder this season (and is second in the team in SB) And he is 27 and has 2 arbitration seasons left. The team needs to see whether Casilla is part of the long term solution or not at this point. He is just entering his prime. I never quite understood his treatment by the manager or some parts of the fan-base for that matter, compare to, let's say, the treatment of Dozier... He is 2 years older than Dozier.
    Ok, I will temper my pro-Dozier/anti-Casilla attitude a little bit. But A: Casilla is almost 3 years older and has had significant playing time given to him. The problem is that he either A: gets hurt, B: hits decent, but becomes a dunder-head plenty in the field, or C: performs well in the field, but hits poorly.

    Also, you make the arbitration statement as though a few million bucks is meaningless to this team, but clearly it is not given the 2012 payroll. I think the decision not to pay what Casilla will be due (about $2 million, correct?) next season has already been made, unless playing Carroll is meant to make Carroll trade-bait somehow this year (two-year deal makes that unlikely). And that is probably the correct decision if they go about replacing him on the roster next year with Pedro Florimon (only 6 months older than Dozier) for $450k or whatever. Trimming that kind of money twice (Burton?) can mean a $3 million difference in SP value.

    That all said, it might be best for Dozier to go back to Rochester until August or even September.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Have you looked at Dozier's slash line recently or look at the defensive metrics of Casilla vs Dozier this season?
    44 games is not a large enough sample size to even take a look at UZR and other advanced metrics, also, Casilla plays 2B and Dozier plays SS. So comparing them in 2012 defensively is apples to oranges.

  19. #39
    Mauer has been healthy all season (minus last weeks hiccup) but has still only started 31 out of 64 games at catcher. Maybe the Twins should be trying to find an everyday catcher for the future and not worry so much about resigning the backup to the not so everyday starter.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by boney View Post
    Mauer has been healthy all season (minus last weeks hiccup) but has still only started 31 out of 64 games at catcher. Maybe the Twins should be trying to find an everyday catcher for the future and not worry so much about resigning the backup to the not so everyday starter.
    Or you can just split him 50/50 with another catcher with a good bat see: Doumit. At this point with other injuries/ineffectiveness the Twins have been able to play Mauer at 1st/DH. I'm sure if pressed he could have started more than 31 games at C so far.

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