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Thread: Article: Patience Probable with Prep Picks

  1. #21
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Even though he doesn't figure into draft analysis, Carlos Gomez also seemed to be in the majors because his speed was there, but the rest of his game was behind the others early in their MLB careers.
    Carlos Gomez may be a perfect example of why rushing players is not always for the best, and I would argue most likely for the worst. Gomez came to the Twins having spent about 1/2 of the previous season with the Mets. Not because he was ready, but because of injury and the Mets philosophy at that time of pushing certain prospects (see Mulvey, Kevin and Guerra, Deolis as well). I imagine if Gomez would have been in the Twins system, he would have just been getting to AA, developing appropriately and instead of having spent four years struggling in the big leagues to this point, maybe he would have come up two years later and been fully developed and turned into what people thought he would.

  2. #22
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWLFan View Post
    As a person who goes to a lot of Minor League games I disagree with this whole heartedly. I missed seeing Morneau in Quad Cities and Manship in Beloit by a week because they moved up before the season ended. I see what is happening with Madison Boer who was the opening day starter in Beloit and has struggled in FM and wonder why he didn't stay down for half a season. I read a lot of Jim Mandelero in Rochester and I think Red Wing fans would laugh, maybe cry, at that statement.

    The Twins final end game is to get these guys to be productive Major Leaguers to the best of their abilities. Down the food chain we need to accept that we are stepping stones and as Mongo from Blazing Saddles would, "Just pawns in game of life." Now how good the Twins are at reaching that end game is debatable, but no one is developing Sano or Buxton to top out at Rochester. Also that some of these guys don't make it is not always the fault of the organization or the coaches or the front office, some personal responsibilty needs to be put on the individual here. These kids, and the are kids, have been given talents and opportunities that us less gifted and more robust shall we say dream of. It is a test of not only physical skills but will and attitude to make through E-Town, Beloit, New Britian and Rochester. We only see the product on the field, but the rest of life is what can trip the players up big time. Some like Josh Hamilton and Sean Burroughs survive the demons to play another day in the sun, most have their moments and move on to some other path knowing they gave it a shot and it didn't work out, some leave angry and confused about why they aren't Strasburg or Trout and blame the coaches and organization, and some drop off the radar and lose themselves like Brien Taylor. Unlike the other sports in or culture baseball is life in many ways.
    Extroidanary post... These kids are kids... Its up to them... It's not like the Twins coaches are telling them anything different than the Rays coaches are. Yeah some organizational creeds can vary but the prospect has to learn to hit his pitch and pitch his pitch and its the same on every club. Every coach should be able to spot a hitch or bad pitching mechanics and point it out and throw BP to try and correct but in the end it comes down to the player working on correcting it. Buying in... Kids come out of HS with bad stuff and get away with it. They hit the pros and they can't get away with it anymore. They don't know why but they will continue to do what they do until the light bulb goes on... It takes elbow grease and the coaches are working at it and talking about it. Now the player has to do it and some just don't get the connection.

    The game is real simple that way.

    They have to get used to the changing game speed and grow. Every once in awhile a Trout or Harper comes along but they are not the norm. This is why High round picks fail. They don't adapt or grow.

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Carlos Gomez may be a perfect example of why rushing players is not always for the best, and I would argue most likely for the worst. Gomez came to the Twins having spent about 1/2 of the previous season with the Mets. Not because he was ready, but because of injury and the Mets philosophy at that time of pushing certain prospects (see Mulvey, Kevin and Guerra, Deolis as well). I imagine if Gomez would have been in the Twins system, he would have just been getting to AA, developing appropriately and instead of having spent four years struggling in the big leagues to this point, maybe he would have come up two years later and been fully developed and turned into what people thought he would.
    A perfect example and I still want Gomez back. What a complete failure by the Twins Organization. Gomez is freakishly talented and we wasted him and Santana at the same time. He was in the bigs way too soon but they felt they had to show something for Johan.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Double-A PMKI's Avatar
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    Didn't want to start a new thread for this but I heard somewhere that when we were trading Johan we could have got Matt Kemp. I'm just wondering if this is true? I realize that Kemp may not have turned into what he is now but I'm just curious.

  5. #25
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    MWLFan, Seth and Riverbrian,

    I think this is a first. I can't remember reading 4 posts in a row on this site that had this level of intelligence and insightfulness rather than emotion and incitefulness.

    Thank you.

  6. #26
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    MWLFan, Seth and Riverbrian,

    I think this is a first. I can't remember reading 4 posts in a row on this site that had this level of intelligence and insightfulness rather than emotion and incitefulness.

    Thank you.
    I can consider that a compliment... thanks!!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    I can consider that a compliment... thanks!!
    You're welcome and deserving!

  8. #28
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    MWLFan, Seth and Riverbrian,

    I think this is a first. I can't remember reading 4 posts in a row on this site that had this level of intelligence and insightfulness rather than emotion and incitefulness.

    Thank you.
    The record is 5 in a row... It was Seth and Twinsnorth exchanging back and forth on something.

    Speaking of North... Where has he been? We need our Canada influence... The site isn't the same without it.

  9. #29
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMKI View Post
    Didn't want to start a new thread for this but I heard somewhere that when we were trading Johan we could have got Matt Kemp. I'm just wondering if this is true? I realize that Kemp may not have turned into what he is now but I'm just curious.
    Unfortunately no... there was a lot of Kemp/Kershaw/LaRoche talk for Santana as the Dodgers were natural partners, but Santana and his NTC dictated where he would go, and it was New York or Boston.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    I hate it how slow the Twins are with their upper Echelon MILB/young signee prep talent. Here are a few examples of similar upside to Buxton over the last few years. These were all top 5 picks, Buxton will likely reach A ball to start 2014 if the Twins continue to keep players for 2 years in E-Town/GCL (Kepler Goodrum) and likely Boyd and Harrison
    Manny Machado Drafted in 2010 made A Ball debut in 2011
    Tim Beckham Drafted in 2008 made A ball debut in 2009
    Mike Moustakas Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2008
    Josh Vitters Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2009 (played 4 games in A ball in 2008)
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jtrinaldi View Post
    I hate it how slow the Twins are with their upper Echelon MILB/young signee prep talent. Here are a few examples of similar upside to Buxton over the last few years. These were all top 5 picks, Buxton will likely reach A ball to start 2014 if the Twins continue to keep players for 2 years in E-Town/GCL (Kepler Goodrum) and likely Boyd and Harrison
    Manny Machado Drafted in 2010 made A Ball debut in 2011
    Tim Beckham Drafted in 2008 made A ball debut in 2009
    Mike Moustakas Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2008
    Josh Vitters Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2009 (played 4 games in A ball in 2008)
    Buxton is a lot different from Goodrum and (especially) Kepler

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrinaldi View Post
    I hate it how slow the Twins are with their upper Echelon MILB/young signee prep talent. Here are a few examples of similar upside to Buxton over the last few years. These were all top 5 picks, Buxton will likely reach A ball to start 2014 if the Twins continue to keep players for 2 years in E-Town/GCL (Kepler Goodrum) and likely Boyd and Harrison
    Manny Machado Drafted in 2010 made A Ball debut in 2011
    Tim Beckham Drafted in 2008 made A ball debut in 2009
    Mike Moustakas Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2008
    Josh Vitters Drafted in 2007 made A ball debut in 2009 (played 4 games in A ball in 2008)
    Kepler and Goodrum were extremely raw prospects when signed and they didn't exactly earn a promotion. Harrison and boyd are sandwich picks and are not comparable (or even close) to Buxton or the other top 5 picks that you mentioned. Buxton will almost certainly make his A ball debut in 2013 and I wouldn't be shocked if he made it there this year.

    It's easy to be critical of the pace that young hitters (HS and intl) are promoted but you need talent and results to earn a promotion. Moses, Parmelee and Hicks were the only highly regarded HS bats (at the time of the draft) that the Twins have taken since Mauer and they didn't exactly push for promotions. You could include Plouffe/Span in that list but I don't recall scouts really loving their bats at the time of the draft.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Kepler and Goodrum were extremely raw prospects when signed and they didn't exactly earn a promotion. Harrison and boyd are sandwich picks and are not comparable (or even close) to Buxton or the other top 5 picks that you mentioned. Buxton will almost certainly make his A ball debut in 2013 and I wouldn't be shocked if he made it there this year.

    It's easy to be critical of the pace that young hitters (HS and intl) are promoted but you need talent and results to earn a promotion. Moses, Parmelee and Hicks were the only highly regarded HS bats (at the time of the draft) that the Twins have taken since Mauer and they didn't exactly push for promotions. You could include Plouffe/Span in that list but I don't recall scouts really loving their bats at the time of the draft.
    I think Buxton is fairly comparable to Bubba Starling talent wise, and a lot more advanced than Hicks was ever thought to be. I could see Buxton coming to class A in June or July next year (similar to Hicks timeline) just so they can get him through Extended and make sure that he is ready.
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  14. #34
    Buxton is a lot more advanced than Starling too

  15. #35
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    Kepler was signed @ 16 and started is career @ 17. He is currently 19 and in E-town.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fetch View Post
    Buxton is a lot more advanced than Starling too
    No he is not,even Keith Law said in his chats that the first guy in this years draft would have been picked 7th or 8th in last years. Lets not start over rating our prospects here....
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jtrinaldi View Post
    No he is not,even Keith Law said in his chats that the first guy in this years draft would have been picked 7th or 8th in last years. Lets not start over rating our prospects here....
    "advanced" and "better" aren't the same thing.

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