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Thread: Nishioka

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    Since I was directly quoted in one post and implicated in others, I'd like to reiterate something from that quoted post: I think Hardy is a very good shortstop and would love if he was employed in that role for the Twins. What I actually said was that people often go overboard in their praise to make an invalid point that feeds their negativity, when simply the truth would suffice to make a valid point (that in this case, the Twins made a weird and poor choice).
    Just whose "narrative" ox needs goring? The "valid truth", according to you, is that "the Twins made a weird and poor choice", but definitely NOT a: "laughable" one, a "blunder", "a complete organizational failure", "painful lesson learned", situation that "turned out, they really blew it". And certainly not "dumb or stupid", because that would just fit a biased narrative. M-kay, then.

  2. #62
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Can we be done with this thread now?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loosey View Post
    My point exactly. I was pointing out how someone was comparing Hardy's numbers this year to Doumit's and essentially saying Hardy is no good. Hardy's numbers, while not All-Star caliber, are very good for a shortstop and I would take him back in a heartbeat.

    ---I said that Hardy was a nice player (not sure where you got "essentially no good" from), but he is overrated by Twins fans who like to dwell on the decision to trade him. Doumit was not a good example to cite as he's not a shortstop, that's a fair point.

    Did trading Hardy and signing Nishioka prove to be dumb moves? Absolutely. But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point.

    As far as "taking him back in a heartbeat" - yeah, sure, at no cost, but he's in the first-year of a 3-year/$22 mil deal. And outside of a 3-week period in May, he's been pretty ineffective at the plate this year. Dozier has put up better numbers at the plate than Hardy over the last month.

    Here's the other thing: suppose we had kept Hardy, he had a great year last year here, we gave him the same extension Baltimore did, and he put up the same 2012 numbers here; I highly doubt that you'd see the same fawning praise of Hardy.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point.
    Is that what the kids these days call a "strawman?"

  5. #65
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---I said that Hardy was a nice player (not sure where you got "essentially no good" from), but he is overrated by Twins fans who like to dwell on the decision to trade him. Doumit was not a good example to cite as he's not a shortstop, that's a fair point.

    Did trading Hardy and signing Nishioka prove to be dumb moves? Absolutely. But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point.

    As far as "taking him back in a heartbeat" - yeah, sure, at no cost, but he's in the first-year of a 3-year/$22 mil deal. And outside of a 3-week period in May, he's been pretty ineffective at the plate this year. Dozier has put up better numbers at the plate than Hardy over the last month.

    Here's the other thing: suppose we had kept Hardy, he had a great year last year here, we gave him the same extension Baltimore did, and he put up the same 2012 numbers here; I highly doubt that you'd see the same fawning praise of Hardy.
    If the Twins would have held onto Hardy and gave him the 6 mil arbitration he was owed, they would have minimized there risk quite a bit, instead they went out and overpaid for some mediorce imported player and are now on the hook for another season.

    Also if the Twins decided they didn't want to give Hardy a 3/22 mil type deal then they could have just traded him at the deadline last season and got back something 1000x better than Jim Hoey. Even coming off of his 2010 season at the very worst Hardy was an above average option at SS for any team. And as "bad" as he has been in 2012, he still is playing significantly better at SS than anyone in the Twins org.

    They completely mishandled the SS position as poorly as humanly possible last off-season.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---

    Did trading Hardy and signing Nishioka prove to be dumb moves? Absolutely. But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point.

    As far as "taking him back in a heartbeat" - yeah, sure, at no cost, but he's in the first-year of a 3-year/$22 mil deal. And outside of a 3-week period in May, he's been pretty ineffective at the plate this year. Dozier has put up better numbers at the plate than Hardy over the last month.

    Here's the other thing: suppose we had kept Hardy, he had a great year last year here, we gave him the same extension Baltimore did, and he put up the same 2012 numbers here; I highly doubt that you'd see the same fawning praise of Hardy.
    Wow, you know you're on the losing side when you can't even quote statistically insignificant arguments accurately:

    Dozier vs. Hardy- Last 30 Days:


    Hardy 215/265/355/620
    Dozier 208/232/260/592


    As noted previously, Hardy's BABIP is ridiculously out of kilter, suggesting it highly likely that he will return to something close to resembling his career numbers.

    So, other than careening wildly to the left and right in attempting to miss the point, you at least are a step ahead of CDog in agreeing that the handling of this situation by the Twins was "dumb".
    Last edited by jokin; 06-23-2012 at 05:39 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Wow, you know you're on the losing side when you can't even quote statistically insignificant arguments accurately:

    Dozier vs. Hardy- Last 30 Days:


    Hardy 215/265/355/620
    Dozier 208/232/260/592


    As noted previously, Hardy's BABIP is ridiculously out of kilter, suggesting it highly likely that he will return to something close to resembling his career numbers.

    So, other than careening wildly to the left and right in attempting to miss the point, you at least are a step ahead of CDog in agreeing that the handling of this situation by the Twins was "dumb".

    ---Well, so much for that previous agreement to debate respectfully with each other and only hurl snotty barbs at White Sox fans.

  8. #68
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---Well, so much for that previous agreement to debate respectfully with each other and only hurl snotty barbs at White Sox fans.
    Yes, can we PLEASE save the invective for people who are truly misguided, such as White Sox fans?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---Well, so much for that previous agreement to debate respectfully with each other and only hurl snotty barbs at White Sox fans.
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    "JJ Hardy is a nice player but I think the gushing over him is a bit excessive. You'd think we were talking about the second coming of Ernie Banks here."

    "But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point......I highly doubt that you'd see the same fawning praise of Hardy."
    My mistake then, I guess I'll put away the Kleenex, nothing snotty to see here...

    From this point, I'll reiterate a pledge to work harder at respectful debate, especially when the street goes both ways.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    From this point, I'll reiterate a pledge to work harder at respectful debate, especially when the street goes both ways.
    Or you could try reading and actually trying to understand. That might work just as well.

  11. #71
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    From this point, I'll reiterate a pledge to work harder at respectful debate, especially when the street goes both ways.
    I respect you for this jokin. In our passion for the Twins, it's easy to become more abrasive than we need to be in order to make our points. But in reality, the worst Twins fan is better than the best White Sox fan. We Twins fans share a common obsession, and while we may disagree, we must remain brothers and sisters lest we start acting like Yankees fans.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    I respect you for this jokin. In our passion for the Twins, it's easy to become more abrasive than we need to be in order to make our points. But in reality, the worst Twins fan is better than the best White Sox fan. We Twins fans share a common obsession, and while we may disagree, we must remain brothers and sisters lest we start acting like Yankees fans.

    ---Well said, glunn, and I salute you for calling us out previously over this. We can disagree, even passionately so, but should do so without attacking each other's character, intelligence and motives. I've let emotion get the best of me a couple of times in the past and crossed that line myself; I apologize for that and resolve not to escalate baseball disagreements into urinating contests. I love this forum, and would hate to see it devolve into the equivalent of the Strib comments section.

  13. #73
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Is that what the kids these days call a "strawman?"
    No, that's what the middle aged folk call it.


    The kids call it an "egregious strawman."

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---Well said, glunn, and I salute you for calling us out previously over this. We can disagree, even passionately so, but should do so without attacking each other's character, intelligence and motives. I've let emotion get the best of me a couple of times in the past and crossed that line myself; I apologize for that and resolve not to escalate baseball disagreements into urinating contests. I love this forum, and would hate to see it devolve into the equivalent of the Strib comments section.

    I can't disagree with one thing you've said and I readily admit to holding strongly to my own point of view, no reason on my part to contribute to any Strib-equivalent "devolvement", though.
    Last edited by jokin; 06-24-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    Or you could try reading and actually trying to understand. That might work just as well.
    My bad then, given there weren't even any college-level words in your thesis, I thought I understood what you said perfectly well. I wasn't aware that you just infrequently pop in from Delphi to deign upon the masses your varied and assundry Oracles. Perhaps it might work just as well for you to make your point better by dumbing it down even lower so even us peons can understand.
    Last edited by jokin; 06-24-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Triple-A gil4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    I'm fairly confident that the 15-20% or so fielding percentage I'd put up would be quite telling of the quality of the player.
    Your -60 UZR would still be a better indicator

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---I said that Hardy was a nice player (not sure where you got "essentially no good" from), but he is overrated by Twins fans who like to dwell on the decision to trade him. Doumit was not a good example to cite as he's not a shortstop, that's a fair point.

    Did trading Hardy and signing Nishioka prove to be dumb moves? Absolutely. But like Cdog said, you don't need falsely make the guy sound like a first ballot Hall of Famer to make that point.

    As far as "taking him back in a heartbeat" - yeah, sure, at no cost, but he's in the first-year of a 3-year/$22 mil deal. And outside of a 3-week period in May, he's been pretty ineffective at the plate this year. Dozier has put up better numbers at the plate than Hardy over the last month.

    Here's the other thing: suppose we had kept Hardy, he had a great year last year here, we gave him the same extension Baltimore did, and he put up the same 2012 numbers here; I highly doubt that you'd see the same fawning praise of Hardy.
    A lot of analysis problems could be solved by not talking about how guys have done over the course of half a season. Hardy's no HOFer but he's easily a top 5 SS in the league.

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