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Thread: How to Fix the Starting Rotation.

  1. #21
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    I don't think they will fix it. Willingham is their biggest FA signing ever, that kind of money isn't going to buy you legit starting pitchers. I figure the rotation next year to be Gibson, Hendriks, Diamond, Blackburn, awful pitcher they sign on the cheap. That's a pretty bad rotation, imo. Baker would have been re-signed, had the surgery not turned out to be full Tommy John. Now, who knows?
    Lighten up Francis....

  2. #22
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Fixing the starting rotation has to be done on two fronts. AND... Fixing the starting rotation must be done.

    In my opinion...The Two Fronts are this: Top End Starters and More options.

    It's easy to sit back and say... Here's 5 guys... The rotation is set. However... Pitchers get hurt too often... You need Multiple arms with the ability to keep you in ball games. This is where the Twins scare me. We don't have enough quality in the majors right now and even worse we don't have any quality in AAA and AA right now... It's a scary situation and we need to trade for them. Terry Ryan can come up with 5 guys who can throw... MAYBE... but who is the 6th guy and the 7th guy or the 8th guy. We need young AAA guys who can be those guys.

    When it comes to Top End guys... Well that's a little harder to do but we need a couple at least. The only thing that I can think of is this... Next Year... Start fresh... Let every current Twins Pitcher expiring contract expire.

    28 million will come of the books. Take that Money and spend it on one Top Line free Agent Pitcher. It might take 6 years and 20 million to land that guy... Who knows... but roll the dice and do it... We don't have much choice. Multiple years... Big Money and understand that he will be anchoring a pretty rough staff for a couple of years.

    Trade Span for a top line young pitcher. If Span alone won't get that guy... Package him with someone. Don't acquire some guy who is in Single A... Make sure he is AA or higher so he can join our Free Agent Guy in the rotation sooner... Rather than later... Shoot for a Banulos or Betences, Skaggs or Bradley, Teheren or Delgado, Trevor May, Zach Wheeler. These pitches are tough gets but if you have to sacrifice offense to get them... Do it... We need Top of the Rotation Arms... We don't have any... And this is will put our team in a tailspin in future years.

    For the rest of the rotation... It's audition time... Sign Rule 5's and take a chance. Look for Potential anywhere and go for it. Trade Capps for it... Trade Morneau for it... Keep throwing guys out there and see if any more Scott Diamonds show up... Hand them the ball... Work with them and hope that you get lucky but do whatever you can to find replacements if they fail. A highly rated guy like Hendricks and Gibson should be allowed to work out his kinks... Be patient with them. Not so patient with the guys who are not as highly thought of.

    Something kinda important in my opinion. For a while... forget about offense... Focus on Defense... Defense will help these pitchers get the job done. Bad Defense will raise your ERA and deflate confidence. I don't care if they can't hit... Can they run and catch. Make the routine play and the amazing play.

    Once the Pitching starts to look like it's heading the right direction. Maybe Sano and Hicks and Buxton will be ready and in uniform to fill the offense back in after we have neglected it for a little while.

    For God's sake... Let's not let Blackburn and Pavano types block rotation spots for younger kids who can help us down the road. Let's start fresh and run as fast we can.

    I should also point out... That everything I posted here... Is next to impossible. Well not impossible but real real hard. Any Free Agent signing can get hurt and be worth nothing. Any Highly rated prospect acquired in a trade can crap out. I just think that Pitching needs to be hyper focused on.

    It's the main reason I was a little disapointed with the draft of Buxton. I hope Buxton ends up a superstar and I understand drafting BPA so I'm not totally against it. I was just hoping for a little quicker Pitching Help... I'll be bummed if Zimmer or Gausman or Appel are pitching lights out in the majors next year or the year after that and Buxton is looking like Hicks in Ft. Myers.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 06-17-2012 at 06:13 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    After long and careful consideration, I think the best option we have is to find a pair of ruby slippers, close our eyes, tap them together three times, and say "The rotation doesn't suck...the rotation doesn't suck...the rotation doesn't suck..."

  4. #24
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    The Twins might find capable starting pitching. I don't really care who they trade or what they pay....but it MUST be done if they hope to become relevant again and keep fans interested.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatic Jack View Post
    I have to ask all of Twins Daily just one honest question about the starting rotation in 2013. How does GM Terry Ryan plan on fixing it? .
    Unfortunately, I do not think that the interim GM, Terry Ryan can fix this mess. Hopefully, there will be a non-interim GM named from outside the organization soon. And I hope that the new GM overhauls "player development" (i.e. the minors)

    This is the man who signed Marquis (to release him) and re-signed Capps to a better than marker-rate contract and lost a pick (or two) in the process. Ryan does not know how to operate with a $100M budget.

    Free agency is not the answer to everything. You cannot just overspend on FA pitchers. I think that as far as the 2013 rotation goes, Diamond might be a decent #4-5 guy and Hendriks could be a decent #3-4 guy. That's all they have. Gibson is a ? and I would be fine if they give him the #5 spot just to figure it out. They need to find a home for Blackburn (maybe in the pen and hope for a Perkins-like re-birth.)

    I think they got to trade. And Span and Morneau and everyone else who makes more than minimum or is older than 30 (that's Burton) should be game. The Philies have a guy names Tyler Cloyd who just got to AAA this year but is the real thing. Also they gave up on Domonic Brown. I think that a package around Span plus some others (Hicks? - he is redundant now with Buxton) might pull those 2 and you got your RF in Brown as well for next season. Then try to see if you can find another arm by trading Morneau to someplace like Toronto.

    Not sure that Ryan is the man who can do that though...
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Unfortunately, I do not think that the interim GM, Terry Ryan can fix this mess. Hopefully, there will be a non-interim GM named from outside the organization soon. And I hope that the new GM overhauls "player development" (i.e. the minors)

    This is the man who signed Marquis (to release him) and re-signed Capps to a better than marker-rate contract and lost a pick (or two) in the process. Ryan does not know how to operate with a $100M budget.

    Free agency is not the answer to everything. You cannot just overspend on FA pitchers. I think that as far as the 2013 rotation goes, Diamond might be a decent #4-5 guy and Hendriks could be a decent #3-4 guy. That's all they have. Gibson is a ? and I would be fine if they give him the #5 spot just to figure it out. They need to find a home for Blackburn (maybe in the pen and hope for a Perkins-like re-birth.)

    I think they got to trade. And Span and Morneau and everyone else who makes more than minimum or is older than 30 (that's Burton) should be game. The Philies have a guy names Tyler Cloyd who just got to AAA this year but is the real thing. Also they gave up on Domonic Brown. I think that a package around Span plus some others (Hicks? - he is redundant now with Buxton) might pull those 2 and you got your RF in Brown as well for next season. Then try to see if you can find another arm by trading Morneau to someplace like Toronto.

    Not sure that Ryan is the man who can do that though...

    Great post. Ryan has proved since he returned that he cannot get it done and he is NOT willing to make the tough decisions that need to be made (firing the medical staff, overhaul minor league devolopment, and overhaul scouting). Right now the best we can hope for is that Ryan will come to his senses and trade all the vets for pitching prospects to build towards 2015. I think Ryan is just too stupid to realize this team has been the WORST in baseball for 2 full calendar years now and he thinks there is still a glimmer of hope they can compete...

  7. #27
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    While I don't see Ryan signing big time FAs, and I don't see him trading prospects for big time starters, I would never call him stupid. He's a very bright man.
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post
    Fantastic Jack----Great post--You hit it on the head! I've been saying this considerable times on various baseball sites for over the last few years. The only way to get out of this mess is for the Pohlads to "step up to the plate" and sign free agent pitchers. Actually, this could have been done already, but they chose not to. Oh, I disagree that Hendricks has good stuff. Dosen't have a good fastball, throws somewhat 3/4-- which kind of flattens out the ball. Has decent control. They want him to locate the fastball first and then the other pitchers. When you have underwhelming stuff, you then should pitch backwards--constantly. Hopefully, he could develop into a 5th starter. Hope I'm wrong on this!
    Hendriks (he has no 'c' in his surname) according to the twins catchers has good sink on both his two seam and four seam fastballs. You could be right that when he drops his arm a fraction that it doesn't get the usual tail. that doesn't mean he hasn't got it, it means he has to become more consistent. If he has underwhelming stuff does that mean that Fiers (who threw a great game) is even more underwhelming as he averaged 2mph less than Hendriks!!!! Both batters struck out 5 although Fiers did it in 7 innings and Hendriks in 5. There is no doubt that Fiers was in control of the game and realistically, Hendriks gained his control after the second consecutive home run in the third even though he still missed too many first pitch strikes. His only blemish after this was Brauns second home run and lets be honest he shouldn't have been there to hit after the dropped catch.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by powrwrap View Post
    Jack Morris.


    [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

    The solution is free agents. The Twins MUST sign a free agent starter or two. They'll have to do so in order to sell season tickets and bring fans back to Target Field.

    Old Nurse posted a nice list. Pick two decent guys off the list. Shawn Marcum is solid. So is Colby Lewis or Anibal Sanchez. Re-sign Scott Baker. Stick Kyle Gibson in the rotation.

    You use Jack Morris as a sign that the Twins will sign top FA pitchers? 21 years does not a current reference make...

    (By the way, Morris was 36 yrs old and coming off 2 very subpar seasons. Hardly a top FA signing)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    You use Jack Morris as a sign that the Twins will sign top FA pitchers? 21 years does not a current reference make...
    It was the last time that the Twins had decent attendance figures and spare revenues. Same as today. Let's not forget that the Twins signed Puckett, Hrbek, Knoblauch to lucrative contracts when they were free agents. Also signed Radke, Morneau, Mauer before they could test the waters. In the era of Target Field (and no Carl Pohlad) this idea that the Twins won't put out the money for big name free agents is no longer true.

    (By the way, Morris was 36 yrs old and coming off 2 very subpar seasons. Hardly a top FA signing)
    What other big name pitchers were out there? Mark Davis? Anybody else? I'd say Morris was one of the top FA pitchers available. Wasn't Morris' salary one of the top salaries of 1991?

    Found it: While the contract was for just one year, the Twins did make Morris the second-highest-paid player in the AL that season.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...tracts/MLBbest
    Last edited by powrwrap; 06-18-2012 at 09:25 PM.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  11. #31
    If you are asking me...my first phone call is to Anibal Sanchez. Under 30 power pitcher who doesn't seem to get run support. My second call is to Scott Baker, and I offer him a 1 year deal at a lower rate. My third call if we still have money to spend is to Shaun Marcum. Solid numbers pitching in a shoebox. Give him Target field and he gets a little better. You probably could sign all three of these guys to near what Hamels/Greinke will get on the open market.

    It's not perfect, but it gives you Sanchez, Marcum, Diamond and Hendriks with Baker fighting for the 5th spot.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopper0080 View Post
    It's not perfect, but it gives you Sanchez, Marcum, Diamond and Hendriks with Baker fighting for the 5th spot.
    And that would get you?
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    And that would get you?
    A SP ERA at least 2.50 below where it is now?
    Last edited by jokin; 06-19-2012 at 10:14 PM.

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    A SP ERA at least 2.50 below where it is now?
    and would that get you about 30 more wins or so to make the Twins competitive? Methinks not.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    and would that get you about 30 more wins or so to make the Twins competitive? Methinks not.
    I'd be tempted to attend more games, for one. Two, what's the Twins current record in one run games? Three, Twins run differential goes from -69 to +69+. Fourth, instead of a humiliatingly bad 32% QS ratio, how about one around or above 50%?

  16. #36
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    This season has shown us many things--1) Starting pitching is very important. 2) Other parts of the team can be patched with decent results and moderate expenditures (Carroll, Doumit and Willingham have done a good job filling out the lineup, the bullpen has been fine by only adding Burton and getting health from the back end). 4) A failed rotation mean non-contention.

    Jack and everybody else is right, the team needs to rebuild their rotation. Only Diamond figures to be a lock for 2013 and he is not an ace. On the current roster, Duensing could be a starter if the Twins acquire another lefthander for the bullpen. I think that should be their fallback if some other options fail I think they need to absolutely acquire a starter at the trade deadline that would project being in the rotation by sometime next year. They need to sign a meaningful starter as a free agent and they need to get lucky with guys in their system. Perhaps there is a Diamond at New Britain or Rochester. Gibson will be almost two years out from TJ next year and Hendriks will get chances probably the rest of this year. I don't hold out hope of Hendriks being anything special, but it is possible that he will be functional. I don't think the Twins should touch Baker for anything resembling his option amount. I think Blackburn needs to be presented with the opportunity to win a spot, but not be guaranteed a spot.

  17. #37
    I would just acquire a left handed starter and keep Duensing in the Bullpen. Baker will not take a one year deal when he has an option that would pay him more. He will see what multi-year deal someone else might offer before coming back to the Twins for a match. Who knows, he might not get one. But he is a good enough pitcher that I would offer him 2 years with a third option -- the question I throw out is how much?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    This season has shown us many things--1) Starting pitching is very important. 2) Other parts of the team can be patched with decent results and moderate expenditures (Carroll, Doumit and Willingham have done a good job filling out the lineup, the bullpen has been fine by only adding Burton and getting health from the back end). 4) A failed rotation mean non-contention.

    I think Blackburn needs to be presented with the opportunity to win a spot, but not be guaranteed a spot.
    1) Yes.
    2) Yes. Is there a website specializing in the Rule 5 draft?
    3) I'd probably agree but point 3 is apparently missing?
    4) What you see is what you get. It's obvious now that in the offseason and ST that the Twins "fixed" the easy problems, but you can't possibly start a season with 5 major question marks in the starting rotation; spending a little more ($10-$20 Mil) on one-year SP FA contracts would have entailed little risk and put the Twins in a position to compete in the short-term, even while they attempt to rebuild in the long-term.

    Re: Blackburn. Given the $5.5 Mil owed next year, might addition by subtraction be a better option than having him on the starting fringes or in the bullpen next year?

  19. #39
    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    I'd suggest the Twins sign C. Lewis. Gibson was on track to being a good #2 so I'd love if he could keep things on track after surgery. Most of the potential free agents pitchers are going to get overpaid, but we have to get at least one reliable pitcher through it. There is no quick fix and the Twins are going to have go with their bargain bin hunting for SPs again. I hate to say it, yet I have to. We are going to have to keep Liriano. Simply put, what we have for next year is no good and has no potential (Blackburn, Walters, Diamond, Hendriks,?). In addition to being awful, there's not enough players under contract. Someone has to be that question mark.

    That said, this is the best I think it can get unless they pay Greinke.
    1 Liriano
    2 Lewis
    3 Diamond
    4 Blackburn
    5 Walters
    Hendriks and Gibson are both knocking as safety nets in this situation.
    Last edited by YourHouseIsMyHouse; 06-19-2012 at 11:38 PM.

  20. #40
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourHouseIsMyHouse View Post
    That said, this is the best I think it can get unless they pay Greinke.
    1 Liriano
    2 Lewis
    3 Diamond
    4 Blackburn
    5 Walters
    Hendriks and Gibson are both knocking as safety nets in this situation.
    I suspect that the Twins will probably trade Liriano, although I am hoping that they will not do this unless he is pitching well and they can get a TOP starting pitching prospect in return.

    I suspect that some other team will get Wilson.

    Each of the rest of these will be lucky to be a decent #5 next year.

    I wish that the Twins had drafted better starting pitchers in recent years. It will be difficult to acquire a potential #1 by trade. If this season continues to tank, then there will be another high pick next year. I pray that there is a great starter available in the first round (preferably a college guy who can move up fast) and that the scouting is as good as it can be in later rounds.

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