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Thread: Article: Starting Pitching Issues and Options

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Article: Starting Pitching Issues and Options


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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Jeff Manship – He went three innings on Wednesday night. When he was starting in Rochester, he was the team’s top starter (of those not promoted), posting an ERA of 3.08.
    Not quite... Hendriks was and then French was pretty close and Deduno has been better but he was on the DL at the time, thus allowing Manship to start. What he has shown these 4 games this season is exactly the same he has shown in 30 games parts of the previous 3 seasons: nothing much
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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Hendriks was... Deduno was hurt. Diamond and Walters were already promoted. French's first starts with the Red Wings were not good.

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    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    I would go with Manship or French. Neither of those choices make me happy and I think they would both get rocked.

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    Senior Member Double-A chuchadoro's Avatar
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    Since the question is basically "What kind of turd sandwich do you want?", it makes sense to make a move that causes as little disruption to the roster as possible (someone off the 40 man). They keep Duensing in the bullpen, he has found his niche. DeVries just got sent down, he's out of it. Manship is the logical choice IMO.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by chuchadoro View Post
    Since the question is basically "What kind of turd sandwich do you want?", it makes sense to make a move that causes as little disruption to the roster as possible (someone off the 40 man). They keep Duensing in the bullpen, he has found his niche. DeVries just got sent down, he's out of it. Manship is the logical choice IMO.
    I agree--give Manship a start or two and hope Pavano will be ready ASAP.

  7. #7
    DeVries is on the 40-man. There are currently two open spots. But then a position player or a eliever would have to go, too (Gray, Manship, Oliveros or Parmelee). I'd say French be placed in the mix nest.

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    Walters will get DL to make room for Oliveros. They will inform Hendricks after tonight's game (if it gets played) that he will be recalled to start Saturday or Sunday (depending on the status of tonight's game). They will want the extra bat on the bench when we go to Pittsburgh and Cincinnati next week so Parmelee won't be sent down. They will probably send Oliveros back down after Friday's game as the bullpen will be sufficiently rested again. With the off days the next 2 Mondays we only need an extra starter for next Saturday and the DH the following Saturday (I believe with the new CBA you can expand the roster for a DH). I would give Manship the start next Saturday and wait and see for the DH.

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    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Dick Bremer and the other Twins paid media people have been pushing the idea that the Twins are back and ready to contend. Now if they believe this and are not just trying to mantain fan interest they must think they should be buyers. Now giving them the benifit of the doubt if they play .600 baseball the last 101 games they could make it to 85 wins. However, they certainly can't do that with this starting staff or the guys from AAA. That would mean buying which imo would be really stupid and even if you're that delusional what would you use to trade for the pitching? Sano, Hicks? It really has to go back to the off season, cutting payroll and leaving the starting staff poorly constructed and with very little talent and that was done by the guy in charge of fixing this mess. Does anyone have faith in Ryan to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Dick Bremer and the other Twins paid media people have been pushing the idea that the Twins are back and ready to contend. Now if they believe this and are not just trying to mantain fan interest they must think they should be buyers. Now giving them the benifit of the doubt if they play .600 baseball the last 101 games they could make it to 85 wins. However, they certainly can't do that with this starting staff or the guys from AAA. That would mean buying which imo would be really stupid and even if you're that delusional what would you use to trade for the pitching? Sano, Hicks? It really has to go back to the off season, cutting payroll and leaving the starting staff poorly constructed and with very little talent and that was done by the guy in charge of fixing this mess. Does anyone have faith in Ryan to do that?
    Yes, I do. I also suspect that the person with all the power, Mr. Pohlad, does as well.

    Please take a look at what Mr. Ryan accomplished last winter. He fixed a horrible bullpen, filled spots for two players we couldn't afford (Kubel and Cuddyer) while also plugging an infield hole with Carroll. That is one good winter. Did he fix the starting rotation, no, because that is one area which most people thought was relatively solid. No way of knowing that his top starter, Baker would miss the entire season.

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    AL Central conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Dick Bremer and the other Twins paid media people have been pushing the idea that the Twins are back and ready to contend. Now if they believe this and are not just trying to mantain fan interest they must think they should be buyers. Now giving them the benifit of the doubt if they play .600 baseball the last 101 games they could make it to 85 wins. However, they certainly can't do that with this starting staff or the guys from AAA. That would mean buying which imo would be really stupid and even if you're that delusional what would you use to trade for the pitching? Sano, Hicks? It really has to go back to the off season, cutting payroll and leaving the starting staff poorly constructed and with very little talent and that was done by the guy in charge of fixing this mess. Does anyone have faith in Ryan to do that?
    This is what's tough for a team like the Twins to be in the AL Central: they get on these streaks near the middle of the season approaching the trade deadline and find themselves in no-man's land of "do we buy or sell?" based on how far back they are of whatever mediocre Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago team is ahead of them. When there is no clear cut dominating team in the AL Central, sure, the Twins might look like they could make a go of it being 5-6 games back when in truth they are not a contender in any sense beyond their division, have serious gaps in their farm system and should be sellers all the way if the right offers come knocking that fill those gaps. I don't blame Bremer or the Twins media for being fans, cheerleaders and forever optimistic. That's sort of their job for the casual fan. The average fan doesn't see the medium-long term problems the Twins face like I think many people on here do.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    30 million dollars came off the books last year. Only 3 million of it was used to upgrade the starting pitching.

  13. #13
    And another 30 will come off this year. There were not alot of options out there for SP in this past offseason. Now if they fail to put some of that money towards a SP this offseason, there will be problems.

    We need to be sellers!!! There are a ton of teams that are still in contention. Not sure who we could get ASAP to fill the hole. Doubt a trade would be made unless it is a current AAA SP from a different team because Roch has NOTHING!!!!!!

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    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
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    Back on topic: I think Liam Hendriks coming up is a no-brainer at this point. He's earned another shot at starting in the bigs based on his outstanding performance over the last month and a half in Rochester. That fills one slot.

    The 23rd is the slot that's up in the air at this point. Listing Manship is very reasonable, but thinking about disruptions to the major league rosters, you'd have to make some serious moves to bring up a guy like French. Remember that Cole DeVries wasn't DFA'd, he was optioned. He was optioned on the 7th, meaning he'd be eligible to come back on the 17th. So to me, DeVries and Manship are the two most likely, with Manship having the edge. In my mind, those two are comparable.

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    The schedule is set up for the Twins to get away with a 4-man rotation of Diamond, Liriano, Hendriks and Blackburn for the rest of the month, with the exception of the 23rd and half of the double-header on the 30th. For those, I'd try to get 3-5 IP out of Manship, but have Duensing prepared to throw 40 or so pitches in long relief. Hopefully, between the two of them, they'd get through 6 IP and set up Burton, Perkins and Capps.

    That buys them about three weeks to figure out whether Pavano is going to be able to return at full strength. If he can't, and the Twins have pulled within 6 games of of the division leader with half the season still to play, I think the front office will be obligated to acquire another quality Major League SP somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highabove View Post
    30 million dollars came off the books last year. Only 3 million of it was used to upgrade the starting pitching.
    Not to be picky, but shouldn't the line read "attempt to upgrade"? I do not recall anyone being thrilled with the signing of Marquis. A 500 pitcher that ate innings. First time through the AL was not a good trip. I did not remember of 3 million would have bought much else.

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    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    Yes, I do. I also suspect that the person with all the power, Mr. Pohlad, does as well.

    Please take a look at what Mr. Ryan accomplished last winter. He fixed a horrible bullpen, filled spots for two players we couldn't afford (Kubel and Cuddyer) while also plugging an infield hole with Carroll. That is one good winter. Did he fix the starting rotation, no, because that is one area which most people thought was relatively solid. No way of knowing that his top starter, Baker would miss the entire season.
    I'm pretty sure most thought that the Twins rotation was pretty weak, even with a healthy Baker.

    There weren't a whole lot of available starters, especially those that would fit under the Twins' self-imposed salary cap. But to say most thought the rotation was relatively solid is incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YLT View Post
    This is what's tough for a team like the Twins to be in the AL Central: they get on these streaks near the middle of the season approaching the trade deadline and find themselves in no-man's land of "do we buy or sell?" based on how far back they are of whatever mediocre Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago team is ahead of them. When there is no clear cut dominating team in the AL Central, sure, the Twins might look like they could make a go of it being 5-6 games back when in truth they are not a contender in any sense beyond their division, have serious gaps in their farm system and should be sellers all the way if the right offers come knocking that fill those gaps. I don't blame Bremer or the Twins media for being fans, cheerleaders and forever optimistic. That's sort of their job for the casual fan. The average fan doesn't see the medium-long term problems the Twins face like I think many people on here do.
    I have faith in Ryan. But, not in the Pohlads! They tried to sell the team, and contract the team. They are not baseball people interested in winning. If so, we would be in contention now. Two years ago they had 93 wins and instead of taking the next step they(ownership) decided to reduce payroll and rebuild. Not what championship teams do! We are a midmarket team--we should follow the Cardinals lead!

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    Hirschfeld

    Hirschfeld
    Could he be an option for the Twins? He pitched yesterday. He has been up and down from AAA to AA. He is not young and is doing well this year.
    He has not been overmatched at AAA.

    Hermsen would be a disaster at this point. He needs to learn how to limit his hits and learn how to pitch against better competition.
    Last edited by clutterheart; 06-14-2012 at 07:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clutterheart View Post
    Hirschfeld
    Could he be an option for the Twins? He pitched yesterday. He has been up and down from AAA to AA. He is not young and is doing well this year.
    He has not been overmatched at AAA.

    Hermsen would be a disaster at this point. He needs to learn how to limit his hits and learn how to pitch against better competition.
    I don't think Hirschfeld is a possibility, but I guess stranger things could happen.

    Not sure about your comments on Hermsen though. "Needs to learn how to limit his hits?" He's given up 52 hits in 55.2 innings in AA. That's pretty good, especially for a non-strikeout hitter. "learn how to pitch against better competition?" He's been the top AA pitcher since moving up at the beginning of May. Of course he has to keep learning and then will have to learn in AAA and eventually will have to learn how to pitch in the big leagues. But... so far so good.

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