Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 79 of 79

Thread: The Twins and Their Supposed "Outfield Depth"

  1. #61
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    8,672
    Like
    4,726
    Liked 2,206 Times in 1,243 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by striker_86 View Post
    I love span, the guy can hit, and draws a lot of walks. He is solid in center. You gotta think that some teams would be interested in that. Maybe a contender who needs a leadoff guy. Kind of like the Shannon Stewart trade for the twins in 03.
    Someone will offer something. His contract... Talent and experience would be exactly what a contender is looking for. There are teams looking like contenders right now that have a need and there are teams that will lose someone to injury before the all star break creating a need.

    Also any team in contention will be itchy to get scratched especially if the team they are chasing or being chased by is upgrading at the deadline. This type of thinking cost us Ramos. It's not new thinking. It happens every year.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Someone will offer something. His contract... Talent and experience would be exactly what a contender is looking for. There are teams looking like contenders right now that have a need and there are teams that will lose someone to injury before the all star break creating a need.

    Also any team in contention will be itchy to get scratched especially if the team they are chasing or being chased by is upgrading at the deadline. This type of thinking cost us Ramos. It's not new thinking. It happens every year.
    Span is not worth a solid starting pitcher. Starting pitching is just too valuable. Ask yourself if you were a GM, would you trade a starting pitcher for Span. If you're answer is yes, then give me some examples of a team and a pitcher.

    That said, I'm actually fine if the Twins trade Span for good minor league prospects at infield positions, but that has nothing to do with having depth at the OF positions. I think they're at a point where they need to start selling current pieces for overall prospect depth.

    I think the Twins have depth at first base and catcher, but you're right in that if there is depth anywhere, it is the OF, but simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.
    Precisely what I was going to post, but you saved me the trouble.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  4. #64
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
    Posts
    8,574
    Like
    2,585
    Liked 3,201 Times in 1,701 Posts
    Blog Entries
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by powrwrap View Post
    Precisely what I was going to post, but you saved me the trouble.
    I was just about to say that, but you made it unnecessary.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    I was just about to say that, but you made it unnecessary.
    I like the way you think.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  6. #66
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
    Posts
    8,574
    Like
    2,585
    Liked 3,201 Times in 1,701 Posts
    Blog Entries
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
    Souhan is wrong as usual. There's never any rigor to his argument. "Span is a wonderful guy. Get rid of him." Cheap, fatuous cynicism. That's his raison d'etre.
    Fatuous, drunk and stupid is no way for a sportswriter to go through life. Well, drunk is probably a job requirement.

  7. #67
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    8,672
    Like
    4,726
    Liked 2,206 Times in 1,243 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Span is not worth a solid starting pitcher. Starting pitching is just too valuable. Ask yourself if you were a GM, would you trade a starting pitcher for Span. If you're answer is yes, then give me some examples of a team and a pitcher.

    That said, I'm actually fine if the Twins trade Span for good minor league prospects at infield positions, but that has nothing to do with having depth at the OF positions. I think they're at a point where they need to start selling current pieces for overall prospect depth.

    I think the Twins have depth at first base and catcher, but you're right in that if there is depth anywhere, it is the OF, but simply having a lot of OF in the minors, of course, isn't true depth -- everyone has a lot of young OF in their minors.
    What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

    You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

    For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

    For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

    I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

    The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

    The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

    3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

    These are hypothetical examples.

    I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.

  8. #68
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,580
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

    You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

    For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

    For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

    I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

    The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

    The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

    3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

    These are hypothetical examples.

    I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.
    QEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD......

    Bottom line is: "valuable pieces" are only deemed valuable in the eye of the beholder and sometimes the beholder's eyes can see the pennant fly if the glimmer of the fleeting fixation of their potential pennant dreams is acquirable. It is incumbent on teams like the Twins to make their tradeable baubles burn brighly, explore ALL options, to take the short-term PR-and-team-cohesion hit,ultimately strengthening and solidifying the areas of current weakness (pitching!) for the long-term.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    These are hypothetical examples.

    I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.
    Nice, something I said must have struck a nerve there to account for that much detail (and yes, I get how it works). Well, we'll see if Span's apparent value (the player we were discussing) to another team garners something like this. I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.

  10. #70
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,580
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex;
    I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.
    Ryan as sure as Hades better get more than a "closer" or you simply don't pull the trigger.

    1)It's all in the marketing by the Twins to create a bidding war,
    2)The perceived need of the potential Suitors,
    3)The few teams with a need to Win Now and/or have club organizational depth at P and,
    4)The Twins doing their homework and poker-playing in identifying who they want but not tipping their hand prematurely (note: I didn't say SP alone, there are other sub-quasi-Johan Santana-esque minor leaguers waiting to be found);
    5)Which is why Span stays in CF, despite protestatons from Souhan (who does a nice job at confounding his own logic in advocating the trade in the first place), et al, to put him in RF.

  11. #71
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
    Posts
    5,018
    Like
    4,331
    Liked 697 Times in 366 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    What are you accusing me of? LOL. At no point did I say that Verlander was coming our way in return. Turner maybe.

    You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

    For example the Giants may consider giving up Zach Wheeler to the Mets for Beltran to fill an offensive hole. I'm not saying they would do that but they might. Hell they may do that just to RENT Beltran for a two months knowing he might sign with the Cardinals as a free agent in the off season. I know it sounds crazy but the Giants would consider this sort of thing. The lure of the playoffs does crazy things. I'm not proving anything... I think the Giants might give up a Zach Wheeler in that scenario.

    For Example... The Braves may consider moving 3 pitching prospects to the Astros for someone like Bourn. They may even send a good OF prospect to sweeten the deal. No way of knowing if they would do this but the Braves are thinking about the leadoff need they have. We will have wait and see.

    I could see a team like the Red Sox needing a hitting catcher like V-mart and offering up someone like Masterson and Hagedone and another pitching prospect.

    The Reds may need a 3B for the stretch drive. Rolen might do the trick. They might give up someone like Zack Stewart and another pitching prospect.

    The Yankees may need a bat off the bench and go for someone like Lance Berkman with injury history and give up a Mark Melencon in return. The Astros might take that deal.

    3 team deals are also possibilities. I know its a long shot but Ryan Ludwick could be shipped to the Padres to bolster a bad offense while contending. The Padres could send some AA pitcher to the Indians and the Indians could send... Oh I don't know... Some sinkerballer like Westbrook.

    These are hypothetical examples.

    I realize that nothing like this happened in the past two or 3 years but maybe if went back furthur in time we could find some examples.
    Great post Brian. Some of those trades actually seemed plausible.

  12. #72
    Member Single-A
    Posts
    87
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    You see it works this way. Teams in contention do not want to part with a player who helped them contend. They want to get stronger. In order to get stronger they trade for players like Span who provide better defense or that leadoff hitter they lack. They trade young players who are not helping the team win right now but players who may help a cellar dweller contend next year or the year after that... Or year after that.

    Riverbrian your quote from above is exactly right. I was listening to Baseball America on XM this spring and a caller asked about the Twins and Casey Stern gave an interesting quote. He said something like, "I can't understand the Twins-most teams when they have 93 wins(this refers to the 2010 season) will try to take the next step and try to strenghten the team. The Twins took the opposite approach and started to lower payroll and decimate the team." That is one of the reasons that I don't have any faith in the Pohlads to take the next step.

    The whole question of outfield depth really comes down to the development of Benson and HIcks--and Buxton.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    856
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post
    I was listening to Baseball America on XM this spring and a caller asked about the Twins and Casey Stern gave an interesting quote. He said something like, "I can't understand the Twins-most teams when they have 93 wins(this refers to the 2010 season) will try to take the next step and try to strenghten the team. The Twins took the opposite approach and started to lower payroll and decimate the team." That is one of the reasons that I don't have any faith in the Pohlads to take the next step.
    Whereas that is an example of how much I notice national media often have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to details. From 2010 to 2011, payroll increased (more than the amount of Mauer's raise).

  14. #74
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    8,672
    Like
    4,726
    Liked 2,206 Times in 1,243 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Nice, something I said must have struck a nerve there to account for that much detail (and yes, I get how it works). Well, we'll see if Span's apparent value (the player we were discussing) to another team garners something like this. I really don't see it, considering that the last offer we heard was for a closer. Maybe Ryan will be able to get more than that.
    No Nerve was struck... Honest. I just need to use emoticons more often.

    Posts can come across differently at times without those little emoticons.

    My examples of trades for pitching was my dry sense of humor. This may be a surprise to some but sometimes I use humor in my posts.

    Most of the time the humor falls flat but I'm undetered and I keep trying.

    On the subject of Span's trade value. We will have to disagree to disagree. The combination of Span's leadoff hitter ability and MLB experience makes him very attractive to a team trying to improve themselves at the deadline.

    On Top of that. Players like Ian Kinsler are batting lead off when players of that ilk could be in a better position down in the order with players on base.

    On Top of that... Span's contract will make him extremely attractive. Span would not be a trade deadline rental. He would fit into the squad for years and his contract will increase his value and on paper should provide a better prospect.

    I will admit... That I have never recieved a phone call from a GM asking me to consider a trade. So my knowledge of trade value is as flawed as anyone else on this board. I can only go by what I've seen in years past and I listed the examples.

    My Observance of baseball trades and my knowledge of human nature tells me this. No one trades a player unless there is something wrong with them.

    Prospects are traded because they can't help right now. That is something wrong with that player. Veterens are traded because they are about to hit the FA Market and the team can't afford to keep them. That is something wrong with that player. Or Veterens are traded because they have an attitude problem and don't mesh with the team. That is something wrong with that player. Or in Span's case... They are traded because the team he plays on has an overwhelming hole elsewhere that needs to be addressed. Span is playing on the wrong team and has value... And that is something wrong with Span. Although not really.

    We will not get Verlander or a Fister. The only way we can get a Verlander for the future is to draft him and get lucky or roll the dice with a young prospect in a trade who can develop into one but not there yet. It's a dice roll but Twins pitching has to be addressed. Span fetches the biggest return in my opinion.

    For those who want to hang on to Span. I understand... I do to. But if Pitching isn't addressed. This organization is heading for a stretch of mediocre and it will last. Span does us no good with Scott Diamond as the #1 Pitcher in 2013 and 2014. We can Sign a FA or two next year to fill the pitching holes. But what happens when two of them get hurt... The Twins pitching at the upper levels is scary problematic. We need Arms and lots of them. It's roll the dice time at the deadline. C'mon 7!!!

  15. #75
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    On the subject of Span's trade value. We will have to disagree to disagree. The combination of Span's leadoff hitter ability and MLB experience makes him very attractive to a team trying to improve themselves at the deadline.
    Somewhere these the conversation got muddled, though we will have to disagree on Span's value. My point wasn't that I think we should necessarily hold onto Span, but that we shouldn't be disappointed if we don't get starting pitching (and I don't expect to) for him. That doesn't mean he might not bring something else that is interesting or useful. However, my whole point of this topic was not really about trading Span. It was more about the fact that when people talk of trading Span as well as other topics (like the draft), part of the discussion is OF depth, and I don't think our OF depth should really be considered because it doesn't really exist.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post

    The whole question of outfield depth really comes down to the development of Benson and HIcks--and Buxton.
    It certainly does, though Buxton is much further away than the first two, and those first two aren't projecting to be major league starters right now.

  17. #77
    The longer this plays out, the more I'm of the mindset that we just keep Span. The Nationals are not going to give up a quality arm for Span. They just got through the scare of having Strasburg go down with TJ surgery, and luckily he came back strong because...he's Stephen Strasburg. They drafted Lucas Giolito at Pick 16. I think they recognize that a stockpile of quality starting pitchers is a good way to insure themselves against future injuries and to stay competitive. Plus, they're probably fully aware of many of Span's shortcomings.

  18. #78
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,967
    Like
    4
    Liked 114 Times in 82 Posts
    Blog Entries
    65
    For those who want to hang on to Span. I understand... I do to. But if Pitching isn't addressed. This organization is heading for a stretch of mediocre and it will last. Span does us no good with Scott Diamond as the #1 Pitcher in 2013 and 2014. We can Sign a FA or two next year to fill the pitching holes. But what happens when two of them get hurt... The Twins pitching at the upper levels is scary problematic. We need Arms and lots of them. It's roll the dice time at the deadline. C'mon 7!!!
    And what happens if Ben Revere gets hurt next year or is nowhere near the leadoff hitter he looks like he could be this year? It works the same both ways with injuries. I am slowly coming around to entertaining the Span trade talk, but not seriously until a month from now and then if only Ben Revere hasn't turned into a pumpkin.

    Other people undervaluing Span are undervaluing the leadoff position and ow important it is to get on base as the guy coming to the plate the most times in a game.

  19. #79
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,967
    Like
    4
    Liked 114 Times in 82 Posts
    Blog Entries
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    It certainly does, though Buxton is much further away than the first two, and those first two aren't projecting to be major league starters right now.
    The Benson problem this year raises a number of issues, yes. That's like a domino because he and Tosoni were the guys readyish to contribute. Hicks is likely a September 2013 call-up. Arcia is the other one.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.