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Thread: Handling Delmon Young

  1. #1
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Handling Delmon Young

    Honest answers only.

    1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

    2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

    3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 06-02-2012 at 10:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    I don't think I would have made the trade. Bartlett seemed to be a possible staple at short for years and garza was looking like he would be a number 2 in a few years. I know the twins didnt like his attitude. I don't see much sense in trade away 2 positions to fill one.

  3. #3
    In some ways, it was a great trade...first round draft pick for first round draft pick. he Twins basically got nothing for Bartlett, though. I remember fans in an uproar when Eddie Morlan was included in the deal, wanting the Twins to instead ship off Juan Rincon or no one.

    Young was signed to one of those early major league contracts, so the Twins had a great idea what they were getting He was in self-made competition with Carl Crawford for glory in Tampa Bay. He was brought in essentially to replace Torii Hunter offensively.

    But at that point, the Twins were glad to be rid of the ego headcase of Matt Garza. But unwilling they got an equally egotistically, arrogant, do-it-my-way Delmon Young. Young was expected to produce....280-.300 average, 20 homers, maybe 80 rbi average.

    My first thought was: They Gave Delmon the Subway Commercial. But, somehow, he started to get overshadowed by the lesser talented sparkplug Carlos Gomez as the newest Twin and the Face of the outfield that year. Gomez thrilled and spilled and somehow Delmon, already having tom play #2 or #3 to the M&M boys, fumed.

    Here is a guy with lots of natural raw talent. He knows it. But he doesn't.

    Tampa got rid of both Garza and Bartlett. Morlan could've been re- had by the Twins numerous times when he apssed thru waivers. The Twins got some energy out of Brendan Harris, but ended up eating lots of salary. Jason Pridie played more than he should've as the second coming of Jason Tyner.

    Delmon could be a superstar. I doubt that he will, though. He doesn't seem to want to listen. Strikes out too much, Seems lost in the outfield, not really in the game unless it is about him. He managed to get another big contract year out of the Tigers. He has made more money than many others his age.

    I would do it again...except -- no -- I would've tried to work thru Garza and be happy having Bartlett somewhere in the infield for another season.

    But he sure didn't fit into the TwinsWay picture.

    And don't get me started on Carlos Gomez. The guy was fun, exciting, totally undisciplined -- like a kid in a candy store with a $20 bill and told to make it last...forever.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Chance View Post
    I don't think I would have made the trade. Bartlett seemed to be a possible staple at short for years and garza was looking like he would be a number 2 in a few years. I know the twins didnt like his attitude. I don't see much sense in trade away 2 positions to fill one.
    I actually think they thought Harris would replace Bartlett somewhere. He kinda did for a moment. Add more punch, perhaps. But we know now not!

  5. #5
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Honest answers only.
    1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.
    2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?
    3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?
    1. My problem with the trade at the time was they gave up the wrong pitcher, and were selling low on a shortstop the manager had criticized in the papers. They were trying to deal from their strength, starting pitching, but Garza had too much upside to let go. I can't find my Usenet post on the subject but I know I agreed with other posters who would have preferred trading, say, Slowey or Perkins (both starters at the time of course). I was bothered that Tampa was willing to give up a good-hit bad-field guy who they seemed to have decided wasn't going to fit in their long-term plans. I thought they had taken a cold hard look at their own players and were palming off a high-ceiling guy with bad flaws. I was worried that Tampa was already known for astute talent evaluation, and doing it again on both ends of this deal.

    2. Once acquired, you have to try to get the most out of Young, and I don't know what management/coaching could have done differently. I would not have bailed out much sooner than they did, but the prior off-season was the last chance to gain anything of substance for him.

    3. I can't let Smith off the hook. Since I don't know what scouting input he had on all the players involved, I can't pretend to know his thinking at the time, but strategically the trade seemed wrong-headed to me in multiple ways, even if well intentioned.

    Let it also be noted that trading away Bartlett (and his replacement Adam Everett fizzling out) ushered in the Nick Punto Era of Overuse, at shortstop. Bad trade, for that reason alone.

  6. #6
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I thought it was a good risk at the time. It seemed to me that Garza wouldn't fulfill his promise in Minnesota and that Bartlett was replaceable. I thought Young could develop into an elite hitter. After one year, I had seen enough of Delmon to believe he would never develop any further. I was hoping that the Twins would trade Young when he value went up, but no such luck.

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    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Honest answers only.

    1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

    2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

    3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?
    I'll make this short:

    1. No - The Twins were looking down the barrel of a Johan Santana trade, Liriano coming off TJ surgery. Garza was the best arm we had at the time looking towards 2008.

    2. DY is a pain in the ass and a **** fielder. We finally were able to get his engines running offensively in 2010 - should have dumped him for the best we could get and keep Hardy.

    3. At the time, if I remember correctly, Twins players and fans were wanting a "difference maker" type of hitter to put them over the edge of merely being able to contend. Bill Smith, wanting to make a splash as the new GM took a risk and made the trade. At the time I was wondering why the Twins didn't get BJ Upton instead of Young for the amount they gave up. Obviously it wouldn't have worked either way. Smith is a Financial numbers guy, should never have been in a GM position, but what the hell, throw him in the doghouse with R.D.

  8. #8
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Honest answers only.

    1. In consideration of the state of the Twins at the time. Would you have made the trade for Delmon Young? Try to be honest with removal of hindsight.

    2. Once acquired, how would you have handled him. Would he still be a Twin or gone at the first sign if trouble?

    3. Do you understand Bill Smiths thinking at the time or is Bill Smith now in the Ron Davis doghouse?
    Honestly...

    The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

    He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

    Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
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    twitter: @thrylos98

  9. #9
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Honestly...

    The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

    He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

    Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...
    I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.

  10. #10
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    In hindsight we know it was a bad trade. Garza has become a solid and sometime dominant starter. I really think it was a combo of Gardenhire trying to eliminate personalities that he and his staff did not like and the Twins trying to replace Hunter's offense. I remember thinking that we Delmon was going to be produce like Hunter for the next 10 years and being really excited about it.

  11. #11
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    I liked it for a couple reasons. First, it was the first time the Twins were willing to trade from an area of strength (pitching) to get a bat that we desperately needed. Even without Garza, the team still had a lot of young arms - Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins, Baker, Boof and Liriano at the ML level, Mulvey, Humber, Duensing at AAA. Second, I was glad the team was moving away from the piranha thing and not giving up on offense at some positions. And, while Harris didn't really work out, our best team in 2010 really was an offensive team without the piranha crap.

    I don't know what the Twins could've done differently. As I recall, Young (because of the contract he signed when drafted) was out of options when we got him so we couldn't move him to AAA. Benching him didn't work all that well. He just never got strike-zone awareness.

    I've never been a big Smith basher. I think all of his moves are, to an extent, defendable but, as a whole, something was wrong. He made some good moves, esp before and during the 2010 season and some of his trades received more criticism than they deserved. Diamond for Bullock especially. I like that he got us more involved in Latin America and I like that he put Deron Johnson in charge of the drafts. But, while our drafts are usually well received when they happened, Johnson's drafts haven't really been productive, at least not yet.

  12. #12
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.
    With all due respect, thrylos did not say he hated Gardenhire. He said that Gardenhire was in his doghouse.

    I don't always agree with thrylos's opinions, but they often provide food for thought. And to say that Gardenhire is in his doghouse seems like a relatively respectful way to express his disagreement with Gardenhire's (alleged) actions.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    With all due respect, thrylos did not say he hated Gardenhire. He said that Gardenhire was in his doghouse.

    I don't always agree with thrylos's opinions, but they often provide food for thought. And to say that Gardenhire is in his doghouse seems like a relatively respectful way to express his disagreement with Gardenhire's (alleged) actions.
    Sorry. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It is no secret on this site that Thrylos wants Gardenhire dismissed and I was sincerely being curious. I just want to know what event made Thrylos think or know Gardy wasn't the man for the job. No disrespect to Thrylos. I actually want to know. Maybe I can subscribe to his point of view?

  14. #14
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    I never liked the trade for Delmon. They gave up way too much, plain and simple. Garza was the Twins #1 prospect at the time, and teams had been asking about him for years. The Twins needed hitting at the time, but they just gave up way too much.

  15. #15
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    Sorry. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It is no secret on this site that Thrylos wants Gardenhire dismissed and I was sincerely being curious. I just want to know what event made Thrylos think or know Gardy wasn't the man for the job. No disrespect to Thrylos. I actually want to know. Maybe I can subscribe to his point of view?
    I love the way that you are now asking the question, and am hoping that the thrymaster will respond in the same spirit.

    My reservations about Gardenhire and the coaching staff are based partly on comments by Hardy and Ortiz about why they hit for more power after they went to other teams. It seems to me that the coaching staff did not get the best from such players. It also seems to me that a different approach might have been taken with Garza. I am also troubled by how poorly the Twins have performed against the Yankees and in playoff games.

    On the other hand, a manager needs good players to have a winning team, and the general manager(s) should share in the responsibility for team mediocrity.

    I do not hate Gardenhire, but I wonder whether a new manager might be a better fit.

  16. #16
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Thanks Glunn. I agree with your 4 points of interest: Hardy, Ortiz, Garza and Playoff futility against the Yankees. Trading Hardy can be equated to divorcing your wife to hang out with a couple of meth head tweekers and Releasing Ortiz can be equated to giving your uber rich neighbor your Rolls Royce because you are too lazy to learn how to drive a stick shick. Garza... puke, Yankees.. puke. Glunn, please do me a favor and send my apologize to Thrylos for calling him a murderer of hope - it was only meant in jest.

  17. #17
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    Trading Hardy can be equated to divorcing your wife to hang out with a couple of meth head tweekers and Releasing Ortiz can be equated to giving your uber rich neighbor your Rolls Royce because you are too lazy to learn how to drive a stick shick.
    I love those metaphors! Well put.

  18. #18
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    Bumpkin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    I am curious. When was the first time you hated Gardenhire and knew you could never turn back. This is actually a serious question and not a bait.
    Forgive the presumption, but I can tell you when (I ) developed a crystallized ice of contempt for Gardenhire. Sometime maybe a decade back, probably less - Steinbrenner paid a condescending compliment to Gardenhire, and Gardenhire the ****ing bumpkin took it to heart and was said to keep an autographed picture of Steinbrenner on his wall. As if, someday, after a little glory with the low-level Twins - Steinbrenner would summon the louche fool to MANAGE THE NEW TORK YANKEES. Wow! Ron Gardenhire, toadstool could spin around like a top and say: "See, see, look at me!" That's when I KNEW that he was a loser, bereft of Twins Pride. Can you imagine TK ever getting a nod on the head from that buffoon Steinbrenner and doing somersaults because of it? He (Gardenhire) never saw his opportunity to carry on a la TK and WIN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. Look how many great players were Twins first and foremost: Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, Kaat, Carew, Blyleven, Puckett, Hrbek, Viola, Hunter, Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau...**** the Yankees and their nearly 40 years of commodification! I wanted him gone THEN, 12 playoff losses in a row mostly to the Yankees, winning weak divisions and nothing else and now the debacle of the past two years - throwing away Papa, Garza, Hardy because they didn't do it that dismal joke of a manager's way is enough. He has no class, no savvy, no capacity to bring this franchise back. Andy seems to me to be too beholden to ****face, and the training staff's a joke. They've got to clean house and now.

  19. #19
    It was a horrid deal at the time. An awful lot of people thought Delmon was a head case and damaged goods before the Twins traded for him. Garzas MiLB and beginning big league numbers pointed to a solid 2-3 starter and Bartlett was a potential long-term solution at shortstop. All these was compounded when we gave Young away for a bag of balls a few years later.
    This deal plus the Johan disaster, plus Ramos for Capps, plus giving up Hardy for nothing are the reasons this franchise is the worst in baseball right now. All horrible moves at the time and made even worse in hindsight.

  20. #20
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Honestly...

    The one who messed this whole thing up was Gardenhire:

    He did not Garza in his team because Garza would not listen to Andy about throwing 2 seamers and pitching to contact. That has been documented and is out there. Then Young comes and Gardy plays him in a position he never played before (LF) instead of the position he has been an above average fielder in Tampa (check out his UZR), RF. Then the Twins started to throw Young under the bus when he did not like to listen to Vavra and wanted to pull the ball. And the kid carried the Twins in his back in 2010. And nobody gives him any credit for that.

    Gardy initiated that mess of a trade and he has been in my doghouse for a while...
    Ditto, and you aren't even mentioning the criticism of Bartlett.

    I didn't mind the trade at the time, except for the Brendan Harris part of it. Or if he had to be involved, it would have been nice to get some low-level prospect as well. Young should have played RF.

    But at the same time, maybe the Twins should not have traded for someone over-rushed through the minors.

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