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Thread: Jeter NOT the Best All-Time Shortstop

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'll take Ripkin over Jeter - Jeter played in the juiced era (not saying he did, just inflated offense everywhere) and was not the defender other top contenders were.
    Ripken played in the juiced era too, no?

    I'd probably take Ripken over Jeter too, though. Wagner, then Ripken, for me.
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  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Ripken played in the juiced era too, no?

    I'd probably take Ripken over Jeter too, though. Wagner, then Ripken, for me.
    I guess that depends on your definition and that varies. I've always thought if it primarily as the 90s and early 2000s.

    I think when you look at OPS+ being 112 vs. 116 despite a significant gap in OPS, tells me there was a difference in the eras they played in. (Edit: I suppose park factor could be huge in this too)
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 07-15-2014 at 10:22 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by drock2190 View Post
    I'm not a huge Jeter fan but I've never heard of those two first players on that list and the rest are great players.

    Besides its not like the talent pool was that deep during the early 1900's.
    Never heard of those guys? You must be 13!(he said jokingly)
    Last edited by curt1965; 07-15-2014 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Meant to be funny, not critical

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Ripken played in the juiced era too, no?
    How else could you account for his .340 BA and .950 OPS in his 38-39 season of 1999.

    It is pure poppycock I's tells ya.

  5. #25
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    Just did my research on John Henry Lloyd - SS star of the negro leagues in the dead ball era. So, I hereby change my list:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. John Henry Lloyd (never got a chance to prove himself in the majors)
    3,4. Joe Cronin/Derek Jeter (TIE - What a performance last night - I hate to let that sway me, BUT!)
    5. Ozzie Smith
    Dick Lundy was another great SS from the negro leagues, and may deserve to place ahead of Ozzie Smith. Cal played too many games at 3B
    Last edited by strumdatjag; 07-16-2014 at 05:21 PM.

  6. #26
    I like Jeter but as another article demonstrated (ESPN) he and Yount have the same statistics. And yest I know Yount had to move to the outfield, but his years as short stop were great. I always wonder about the New York effect. Would Cal be number one if he played in NY?

    Honus Wagner is a consensus pick on almost all polls and will stay there, but the difference in glove, speed, and conditions make him nostalgic and perhaps not logical for a list with Jeter. I would put him on that mythical team with Cy Young, but beyond that we cannot compare.

    Perhaps the list needs to be post war which would then include Jeter, Smith, Ripken and we would have to add Apparicio who is vastly under rated today. He led the way to the era of great shortstops and base stealers like Maury Wills (who had too short of a peak).

    I agree with Banks too (yes I am an old timer) and despite the fact that he moved to !B we should not diminish his ranking. Many have complained that Jeter should have moved years ago to another position. Both Banks and Yount became stars at two positions.

    Barry Larkin just got HOF recognition, Lou Boudreau, Pee Wee Reese, and Phil Rizzuto got HOF too, but are below the others in this discussion. Luke Appling could be one of the top five, but I did not see him and it is hard to make a call on that.

    To bring this ramble to an end here are the best I have seen in my 68 years:

    1. Alex Rodriguez
    2. Cal Ripken
    3. Ernie Banks
    4. Derek Jeter
    5. Ozzie Smith/Luis Aparacio

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  8. #27
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    Thought I heard Jeter once say that Wagner was probably a better shortstop than he is.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    We're missing somebody important but for the life of me I cannot think of who it could be, some old-timers help me out please.
    Are you thinking of Nishi?

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  11. #29
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    Was shortstop as important defensive position in the deadball era? I don't think the defensive spectrum would be the same.

    Catcher was a position where defense was a high priority. Somehow Bill Bergen played nearly 1000 games. In 1909 his OPS+ was 1 while being the regular catcher.

    After catcher, third base was very difficult. Fielding bunts and foul balls were part of every inning. It was a defense first position. For some reason Wagner did not stay at 3B and was not the regular SS until age 29 after playing OF and 1B. His defensive skills included his great arm which gave him range and good hands. His large feet caused some problems. It is hard to find first hand accounts of his defense. You can see quotes from contemporaries, but they are after the fact. It would be interesting to read accounts written before he moved to SS.

    I don't think a player with the same skill set would be a SS in today's context. He would look more like Miguel Cabrera or Miguel Sano.

    Comparing Jeter to Wagner is very difficult when the defensive demands on the position have changed.

  12. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    how about Ozzie Smith? he wasn't nearly the hitter that Jeter is, but defensively I'd rather have Ozzie than anyone else at Short. He could still pick it this last weekend in the celebrity softball game... Just saying.

    Cal Ripken, Jr. was a better Hitter and a better fielder than Jeter.

    Out of the modern era, I'd go Ozzie, Cal, then Jeter. A-Rod is probably top 5 if you just count his days at SS, but we don't speak of him anymore, right?

    Guys like Trammell and Larkin were pretty good too, though they were overshadowed by their contemporaries Ripken and Smith, respectively.

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  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The point was that Jeter's offense has to be seen in light of the era he played in - which had record offensive numbers. His OPS+ is roughly the same as Ripken's and defensively it's no contest IMO.

    Larkin should also at least be in the conversation.
    OPS +, Ripken career +112, Jeter +116. Jeter better avg (.311 vs. .276), Ripken way more HR (431 vs. 258).

    Career Offensive WAR Jeter 95.2 versus Ripken 77.2. Defense is not even close, Ripken +34.6, Jeter -9.4.

    Jeter has been a liability defensively for most of his career. You net those two together and you get 112 to 85 edge for Ripken.

    Honus's stats are obviously way better than both....just a historical issue. I think WAR and OPS+ factor against competition at the time. Honus had a +151 OPS+. WAR 123 + 21.3, net +144

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  16. #32
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  17. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    Freddie Patek. He was overlooked by many.
    I wonder how many people get this joke.

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  19. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Career top 10 fWAR leaders at SS:

    1 Honus Wagner 138.1
    2 Alex Rodriguez 111.0
    3 Cal Ripken 92.5
    4 George Davis 84.6
    5 Bill Dahlen 77.5
    6 Derek Jeter 74.3
    7 Luke Appling 72.7
    8 Arky Vaughan 72.6
    9 Barry Larkin 67.6
    10 Ozzie Smith 67.6

    Not.Even.Close.

    And as far as peaks go, Arky Vaughan has the edge, even over ARod. Short career was his downfall as far as WAR was concerned but a top NL player in the mid '30s to mid '40s. Only non-HOFer in the list, other than the 2 active ones, is Dahlen and he should probably be in.
    Last edited by Thrylos; 07-17-2014 at 07:20 PM.
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  20. #35
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    I wonder how many people get this joke.
    You Must Be This Tall To Get This Joke.

  21. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Banks played more games at 1B than at SS in his career.

    For my money (which is not much), I'd take Jeter as the top SS of all-time...
    Seth would you agree that SS is the most critical position for fielding on a team? How can you justify Jeter's Defensive WAR of negative 9.4? Jeter was a gamer, a great hitter, a hustler, a leader, but he was a poor fielder at a critical position.

  22. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Career top 10 fWAR leaders at SS:

    1 Honus Wagner 138.1
    2 Alex Rodriguez 111.0
    3 Cal Ripken 92.5
    4 George Davis 84.6
    5 Bill Dahlen 77.5
    6 Derek Jeter 74.3
    7 Luke Appling 72.7
    8 Arky Vaughan 72.6
    9 Barry Larkin 67.6
    10 Ozzie Smith 67.6

    Not.Even.Close.

    And as far as peaks go, Arky Vaughan has the edge, even over ARod. Short career was his downfall as far as WAR was concerned but a top NL player in the mid '30s to mid '40s. Only non-HOFer in the list, other than the 2 active ones, is Dahlen and he should probably be in.
    I deleted my post because I misread yours... sorry.
    Last edited by Bark's Lounge; 07-17-2014 at 10:20 PM.

  23. #38
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    We're missing somebody important but for the life of me I cannot think of who it could be, some old-timers help me out please.
    Considering he's been the 2nd best SS on his team for quite some time right now, I think that someone else is A-Rod. Granted there's the streroid thing there, but A-Rod has been a better SS than Jeter. Jeter is an HOF SS, but I think he's a bit overrated.

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