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Thread: Sinker: Pirates find Worley's mechanical flaw

  1. #41
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Between Worley and Nolasco, Anderson should be fired. One season is not enough, but this is a well-established pattern. Garza is probably the best example of how to screw up a promising pitcher.
    Eh, Garza was pretty good in his last season with the Twins, short as it was. I don't fault Anderson for anything that happened with Garza.

  2. #42
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    I do want to point out that the Anderson has had a lot of success with our bullpen pitchers. Theilbar is solid, Deunsing is too. Fien came out of nowhere from Detriot. Burton was successful before his injuries and came to Minnesota and was successful (compared to Worely). Guerrier was an Anderson success story too wasn't he originally from the Whitesox or Cleveland organization as a failed AAA starter?

    I don't hold any stock in Worely he came off an injury and was overweight and out of shape when he got here. That's a lot to come back from especially his stuff isn't that great to begin with. Didn't he have the lowest swing strike rate? Most of his k's came on pitch location and getting the calls. I do think he is a solid pitcher 4/th or 5th starter. I was hoping he would develop into a number 3 with us but I don't see that now or ever.

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  4. #43
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    This is an amazingly tough crowd! So Anderson didn't get Worley to make the adjustments. Maybe, but not certainly, Anderson missed "the" mechanical flaw that resulted in him stinking, consistently, for many many months. The two questions I have are:

    1. Is it possible that Worley is accountable for most of the problem and that it took a (welcome for him) change of scenery for him to step up on his end perhaps?

    2. How do you account for the numerous cases where pitchers come here and have better years? Is this in SPITE of Anderson's incompetence? Or is it possible that one of the many variables to success is the meshing of personalities? I mean, why don't we hear of more complaints from pitchers who leave, and why aren't there overwhelmingly more examples like Worley's than there are examples like Deduno's or Fien's?
    Last edited by birdwatcher; 07-07-2014 at 11:21 AM.

  5. #44
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTryan View Post
    I don't really agree with that last sentence there. I'm not sure how you think pitching works, but there's not one right way to throw a baseball. Yes, there are good and better ways, especially depending on how you're built what you're trying to accomplish, but it's not like there's certain definable mechanical flaws in pitching that can just be "found" in the way that you find a bad spark plug something. You may see what you perceive to be an ineffieciency or a tweak to be made, but you have to realize that with every small change comes others when you're talking about a complicated, fast, coordinated motion that utilizes so many different parts of your body.

    I'm by no means a huge Rick Anderson fan, and I wasn't all that happy about how the FO handled the Worley thing (mostly because of the cost to acquire him, more so than thinking he was very good). However, let's not sit here and pretend one starting pitcher doing better for a small stretch, in the NL no less, is some damning indictment on our coaching staff. Some guys just don't pan out in certain situations.

    Phil Hughes.
    The pitching coach has 2 years worth of video when Worley was a decent pitcher to compare against. That's on the coach... and I agree, Hughes' adjustments are on the coach too.

  6. #45
    Senior Member Triple-A Gernzy's Avatar
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    Wow this thread really exploded...and all I'm thinking of is the movie Anger Management.
    "The anger sharks are swimming in my head..."

    I really hate how everyone blames everyone else. And not just on here, in general. No one seems to want to man up and take responsibility. Everything is someone else's fault.

    On that note, I am a big fan of our front office and coaching staff, but it could be time for a change.
    I bent my wookie...

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  8. #46
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    It is the coaches job to make players better......not sure how to not put blame/credit on them when things go badly/well. That is their job, to make players better. I doubt anyone here is absolving any pitcher from having "blame", but saying the coach is not at all accountable, and it is only the player? What is the coach for then?
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #47
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    It is the coaches job to make players better......not sure how to not put blame/credit on them when things go badly/well. That is their job, to make players better. I doubt anyone here is absolving any pitcher from having "blame", but saying the coach is not at all accountable, and it is only the player? What is the coach for then?
    For me, it can be a case by case thing. Like I said before, I don't blame the Twins for Worley's failure or success - I think Worley has always had the potential to be good, but he is a bit of a head case.

    My biggest criticism with the Twins' management style overall is that they give very long leashes to players with ML-experience, but will send down the young players or let them rot in the minors for years (Slama) without getting a chance to fail in the big leagues.

    They've been very stubborn about re-building the team, which has resulted in lots of at-bats for guys that won't be wearing a Twins uniform when they do make it back to the playoffs some day. The guys that will be there will have less ML experience than they maybe could have had....

    It's all guesswork and assumptions from me, though - I think Worley's problems were Worley's. There is some amount of evidence pointing to the Twins recognizing the issues early (april 2013), and acting accordingly (they sent him to AAA to work it out, then when the issues remained in Spring Training they cut their losses.) .

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  11. #48
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    It is the coaches job to make players better......not sure how to not put blame/credit on them when things go badly/well. That is their job, to make players better. I doubt anyone here is absolving any pitcher from having "blame", but saying the coach is not at all accountable, and it is only the player? What is the coach for then?
    In my opinion, successful coaching (or teaching) needs to be process-based; if a specific coach has a philosophy, a strategy to carry that out, and a method of communication, you have a good coach if you believe in the philosophy. (I know some don't believe in Andy's/the Twins philosophy, but that's not poor coaching per se). Not all players are going to blossom under any one system or coach; so evaluation needs to be case by case.

    For instance, to whom do we credit for the improved starting pitching across the board (save Nolasco) from April until now? Should we Anderson get credit for that drop in ERA or do we give it to the pitchers? You can't just make sweeping judgments of blame and credit.

  12. #49
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    For me, it can be a case by case thing. Like I said before, I don't blame the Twins for Worley's failure or success - I think Worley has always had the potential to be good, but he is a bit of a head case.

    My biggest criticism with the Twins' management style overall is that they give very long leashes to players with ML-experience, but will send down the young players or let them rot in the minors for years (Slama) without getting a chance to fail in the big leagues.

    They've been very stubborn about re-building the team, which has resulted in lots of at-bats for guys that won't be wearing a Twins uniform when they do make it back to the playoffs some day. The guys that will be there will have less ML experience than they maybe could have had....

    It's all guesswork and assumptions from me, though - I think Worley's problems were Worley's. There is some amount of evidence pointing to the Twins recognizing the issues early (april 2013), and acting accordingly (they sent him to AAA to work it out, then when the issues remained in Spring Training they cut their losses.) .
    My biggest problem with Anderson in particular is his cookie-cutter approach. "Teach the kid a sinker and make him keep it at the knees." It's basically the Bert Blyleven school of pitching. That works for some guys, but not for all. Scott Baker could not throw a sinker to save his life. When he tried to, he got hit hard. His best pitch was and is the high fastball, which Anderson tried to tell him not to throw. Eventually, Baker just decided he had to ignore Anderson in order to be successful. To his credit, he was.

    The strange thing is, Worley fit the mold of guys Anderson tends to help, like Carlos Silva and Nick Blackburn. Guys who throw the sinker 80% of the time. I'm at a loss as to how he was unable to help Worley.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  13. #50
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    My biggest problem with Anderson in particular is his cookie-cutter approach. "Teach the kid a sinker and make him keep it at the knees." It's basically the Bert Blyleven school of pitching. That works for some guys, but not for all. Scott Baker could not throw a sinker to save his life. When he tried to, he got hit hard. His best pitch was and is the high fastball, which Anderson tried to tell him not to throw. Eventually, Baker just decided he had to ignore Anderson in order to be successful. To his credit, he was.

    The strange thing is, Worley fit the mold of guys Anderson tends to help, like Carlos Silva and Nick Blackburn. Guys who throw the sinker 80% of the time. I'm at a loss as to how he was unable to help Worley.
    yeah - I did have high hopes for Worley when the Twins made the trade, it just didn't work out.

  14. #51
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I'm definitely not one to think that every "Miss" is a fireable offense.
    I'm also not a huge fan of Rick Anderson.
    He's probably had an equal number of hits and misses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    In my opinion, successful coaching (or teaching) needs to be process-based; if a specific coach has a philosophy, a strategy to carry that out, and a method of communication, you have a good coach if you believe in the philosophy. (I know some don't believe in Andy's/the Twins philosophy, but that's not poor coaching per se). Not all players are going to blossom under any one system or coach; so evaluation needs to be case by case.

    For instance, to whom do we credit for the improved starting pitching across the board (save Nolasco) from April until now? Should we Anderson get credit for that drop in ERA or do we give it to the pitchers? You can't just make sweeping judgments of blame and credit.
    I agree, but you can make judgements, that's what leaders need to do, decide who is doing a good job, and who is not.

    I guess you could look at the starting pitchers ERA or FIP or your favorite stat, and decide if, as a whole, they are good or not, year after year? There has to be a way to judge not just process, but also outcomes.

    To me, "anyone"* can coach a great player. It is the coaches that can help bad or mediocre players succeed that matter. I just don't see a lot of that happening here, year over year.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #53
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    It is an odd discussion.

    If one side questions Anderson, others read the person saying that Worley had no responsibility. On the other hand, when another questions the work ethic of a player, another reads it as the coach has no influence.

    Many major league pitchers walk a fine line of success. There is little room for dropped velocity or slight loss of command without significant drop in performance. Hopefully a coach can help each individual player walk that fine line of success. Poor performance from a previously successful pitcher lands on both pitcher and coach.

    No coach works well with every player. All coaches work well with some. The best coaches can work well with a diverse group of skills sets.

    It certainly is on the staff to evaluate talent. The Twins staff felt that the 26 year old Worley had less upside than a 32 year old Virgil Vasquez. That decision is on the shoulders of the staff and should have been greatly influenced by Anderson.

    Can the Twins easily replace Nolasco with a pitcher they believe will perform significantly better? If so, they should do so now.

    Can the Twins easily replace Anderson with a pitching coach they believe will work well with a larger number of pitchers? If so, they should do so now.

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  19. #54
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    I'm definitely not one to think that every "Miss" is a fireable offense.
    I'm also not a huge fan of Rick Anderson.
    He's probably had an equal number of hits and misses.
    I agree. My problem is that lately, it seems we've had more misses than hits... And even if they're equal, that's still not a good enough percentage. Gibson and Hughes are pluses but have to be offset by Nolasco and possibly Worley, performance pending.

    I'm not an Anderson hater, I simply think he's not as effective as he should be, or even as effective as he was in the past.

    All of this is grey area stuff. There is no clear answer. For me, Worley is just the tipping point where I say "enough is enough, time to move on".

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  21. #55
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    You win because of good coaching and lose because of bad players or the other way around the reality is this team has sucked big time for 3 1/2 years now. Is that long enough to expect some real changes if not how long are we expected to wait?
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  22. #56
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Phil Hughes? Can we really be that negative to onlysee the bad? How about Johan Santana? He seemed to turn out ok under Rick Anderson.

    The Twins were in rebuild mode and still remain in rebuild mode. You have to find a few players every year who can be long term answers. I would venture to say we have found some staples this year. Dozier is the second baseman for next half decade. Hughes and gibson are pretty good mid rotation guys. May and Meyer are on the brink of showing what they can do. Pinto looks like at the very least he can smash. Oswaldo is here to stay if he can cut his k's a little. CF to me is a mute point. Buxton will be the CF by mid season next year. I think hicks can still contribute and at least be a 4th OF (remember Span took longer to cook and was given up on by most). SS looks like we finally have some talent coming up.

    I like our rebuild much more than teams like Chicago and Houston. The storm is coming. If you arent patient for a baseball rebuild...stop watching baseball.
    Yeah, shortly after posting I remembered Hughes. He's turned out pretty well. I agree that Anderson may have had some impact on Santana, but that was a long time ago.

  23. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    What are the odds that Terry Ryan is seeing red right now? I can't believe he would shrug off something this obviously flawed in the Twins organization.
    Pretty sure TR and the boys can just shrug Worley off as another "incompatible personality."

    How long did this organization ride Dick Such? Pretty much until he and TK were ready to retire, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Revere has been all sorts of terrible for the Phillies.
    Revere has been worth 1.8 fWAR the past 1.5 seasons, .5 of which he was out with injury. I would personally describe "terrible" as negative value and I would describe Revere as slightly above average.

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  26. #59
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    If something like this (a 1-2 month turnaround for a pitcher from garbage to productive simply by a coaching change) isn't enough to rattle your confidence in Anderson.......then you might as well just endorse he stay here for life.
    Last edited by glunn; 07-07-2014 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Characterizing someone else's position -- deleted the bad sentence

  27. #60
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jharaldson View Post
    Revere has been worth 1.8 fWAR the past 1.5 seasons, .5 of which he was out with injury. I would personally describe "terrible" as negative value and I would describe Revere as slightly above average.
    An average player is roughly a 1.5-2 WAR player. Revere is well below average and the type of player that usually ages terribly.

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