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Thread: Article: Nolasco Presents a Big Problem

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosterman View Post
    Heck, why not advance Kohl Stewart and let him pitch and learn (ala Aaron Hicks).
    Where should I start?

    Not even a remotely similar situation to Hicks.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Well. Pain all season. Couldn't get loose. It's too bad he felt he had to hide his injury - he could have been a late scratch for the Yankee game and Deduno or Swarzak could've taken his place.

    In general, what is the benefit of hiding an elbow issue? Seems like a lose-lose situation. You either increase the severity of the injury, pitch poorly, or both.

    Maybe it's another one of those unwritten rules. . .

  3. #83
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    While Gardy does have the perception of coddling injured, even simply hurt players, I think had Nolasco told them he had soreness but believed he could pitch through it, they would have still run him out there. At least to a point.

    I don't think he needed to hide the injury, this team let Brad Radke pitch with a fractured shoulder socket after all. They pushed Scott Baker to continue pitching even AFTER he started complaining about elbow problems and wasn't it Matt Capps who was injured all season yet they kept running him out to not close games because Capps wanted to tough it out?

    I think if Nolasco told them he could handle it, they would have given him ample latitude to gut it out.

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  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    So, ya, I do not admire guys who hide injuries.....they tend to perform badly, and prolong their recovery. Well, this sucks, or maybe he will pitch better in one to two years. Sigh.
    I completely agree. What Nolasco has given us is 103 IP at a 5.90 ERA. That is not helping us at all. In fact, his elbow will be worse, any surgery and recovery will be put off, and we could have used those 103 IP on a young guy like May or Meyer.

    Just imagine for a second if a young pitcher, not a veteran had done that. Gardy would be mad.

  6. #85
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    Nolasco was pretty much a consensus top 5 free agent pitcher in the offseason. This is why building through free agency is so troublesome.
    I don't think anyone is advocating "building" through free agency. It is nice, however, to "add" through free agency.

    Like all decisions there is a risk of the move failing, nothing more and nothing less.

  7. #86
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I completely agree. What Nolasco has given us is 103 IP at a 5.90 ERA. That is not helping us at all. In fact, his elbow will be worse, any surgery and recovery will be put off, and we could have used those 103 IP on a young guy like May or Meyer.

    Just imagine for a second if a young pitcher, not a veteran had done that. Gardy would be mad.
    From the sound of things, Gardy was pretty mad about Nolasco's performance. Is Ricky forgiven now because he chose not to disclose an injury?

  8. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I don't think anyone is advocating "building" through free agency. It is nice, however, to "add" through free agency.

    Like all decisions there is a risk of the move failing, nothing more and nothing less.
    I certainly was in favor of the efforts this past offseason and was supportive of the actual players they brought in (though Pelfrey was certainly uninspired). $90 mil outlay is nothing to scoff at.
    Papers...business papers.

  9. #88
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I certainly was in favor of the efforts this past offseason and was supportive of the actual players they brought in (though Pelfrey was certainly uninspired). $90 mil outlay is nothing to scoff at.
    Absolutely, but it's a scarecrow that people want to "build" through FA. They want to add talent using a resource available.

    And yeah, I think we can all agree Pelfrey has turned out to be even more mind-boggling than it was at the time. With Nolasco there is reason to be surprised it's turned out this badly so far. Pelfrey? It almost feels like the baseball gods punishing stupidity.

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    From the sound of things, Gardy was pretty mad about Nolasco's performance. Is Ricky forgiven now because he chose not to disclose an injury?
    Probably, Gardy is probably using Nolasco as a model of toughness. If it was a rookie he would publicly berate them.

  11. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    I was kidding about Morris, obviously he's ancient history that doesn't pertain and the smiley face was there to avoid any serious discussion arising from him. Morris is always the answer when FA pitching comes up, it's pretty much like adding Duensing to any trade for a star.

    I wanted to make sure what I thought you were saying about the move. If signing him was a bad move, then it's only with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I normally don't like digging out people's words, and the TD search for the term "Nolasco" only goes back to February anyway, but I don't find many posters saying it was bad move then, including you.

    A move is bad only at the time it is made. After that, you have an underperfoming member of the team. They should do something, but questioning the move isn't productive, inviting criticism of the very thing most folks were clamoring for the FO to do. We all had our preferences whom to get, but no one at the time stated that Nolasco would be the worst starter in the league at the All-Star Break.
    I read these forums nearly daily and never comment since I'm too lazy to confirm any of my opinions (most of which are terrible). However, I thought I had commented once before (related to this topic), but have confirmed I never did (so, my first post!)

    Anyway, I am pasting an email I sent to a buddy (unedited) on December 2, 2013. Some of the information in the post precedes some transactions made, so not relevant to Twins lineup come starting day. My email was in response to a buddy who was super excited about the Nolasco signing. In no way am I intending to make my first post to make me look like I knew what I was talking about. But, simply to say that not every Twins fan was optimistic about the signing.

    ***EMAIL***

    Nolasco is not worth the 4/49 they're paying him. Not even close. I like the
    Hughes signing, I think that will pan out ok. Of course, that comes with a
    BIG "IF" he stays healthy. The guy hasn't pitched over what, 100 innings, in
    3 of the last 4 years?!

    Albers and Worley are not MLB ready, nor capable. They both belong in
    AA/AAA. Deduno is wild and injury prone. His WHIP will always be an issue.
    He can't strand base runners.

    Gibson - who knows with that guy. He's a weak pitch-to-contact (just like
    Nolasco and Hughes for the most part). Correia is our "best" pitcher and
    that's pretty sad lol.

    I see Nolasco struggling MIGHTILY in the American League. He is marginal in
    the NL. Bad signing in my book. But, like I said, I think Hughes if
    serviceable (if healthy). I see him as a 4.20 ERA type guy. Which is fine if
    we have offense (which we .... ummmm ... kind of don't).

    ***END OF EMAIL***

    Opinions are opinions. Therefore, I will at least leave this post with what I (once again an opinion) think should happen going forward...

    Put Nolasco on DL - let him heal. Good, bad, or indifferent, he has to pitch for this team. Bring up Mays and/or Meyer (I'd like to see both). This team is done for the season. We have to let these young guys pitch to MLB hitters to prepare them for next year. Gibson seems to have benefited from this to an extent. Cut bait on Correia at the deadline which leaves us with:

    Nolasco
    Gibson
    Hughes
    Meyer
    Mays

    And just to confirm that I don't know what I'm talking about - here is another email sent on 2 JAN 2014 to the same guy (unedited) about the offense (in response to an email about how "awesome the Twins will be this year)...

    ***EMAIL***

    LF - Willingham - 20HR but will be on DL too often to matter
    CF - Hicks - can't hit ... at all
    RF - Kubel, Parmalee, Collabello, Arcia - who knows, but "none" of them can/will hit. Arcia is a 20% chance of being "awesome"
    3B - Plouffe - 20HR, but can't hit
    SS - Florimon - can't hit
    2B - Dozier - 15HR .250
    1B - Mauer - .324, 15HR 50RBI (who will be on base to bat in?)
    CA - Pinto - who knows at all. LESS than 10% chance to be "awesome"

    So, the starting pitching (I think) will do fine. They won't be league best, but we should be adequate. But, it doesn't do
    any good to have a guy pitchign with a 1.17WHIP and a 3.56 ERA and finish the season 7-16 because the team can't score more
    than two runs a game. This offense is absolutely horrible.

    So, providing they're healthy, we have THREE (yes, 3) guys of the starting 8 who can hit a baseball. That's - not - good

    ***END OF EMAIL***

  12. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    There is generally a reason that pitchers reach free agency. It is not just money, it is the poor supply in free agency, and those available are generally pitchers with warts.

    Nolasco was pretty much a consensus top 5 free agent pitcher in the offseason. This is why building through free agency is so troublesome.
    First of all, nobody "builds" through free agency or advocates doing exclusively that.

    Second, the problem isn't free agents in general, it's paying a premium for a mediocre but supposedly healthy/durable pitcher. Was Nolasco really worth 1.5 times as much as Vargas? Twice as much as Hughes? 2.5 times as much as Kazmir? Nolasco was the 8th ranked SP on MLB Trade Rumor's top 50 free agent list last winter, but his contract with the Twins was in a virtual tie for 2nd biggest after Tanaka. I had hoped the Twins had identified some secret upside in Nolasco to justify the deal... but apparently, they couldn't even get the healthy/durable part right.

    And of the 17 SP on that MLBTR list, only Paul Maholm has pitched as poorly as Nolasco, and he has spent most of his time in the bullpen. (You could also add Josh Johnson, who hasn't pitched at all due to injury.) Several others are having disappointing years.... but still pitching at or above Nolasco's established career level.

    That's not free agency's fault, that's just a big, bad, conservative bet.

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  14. #92
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    First of all, nobody "builds" through free agency or advocates doing exclusively that.
    I don't know anyone who exclusively advocates it, but when 4/5's of your rotation going into the season were signed as free agents in the last 2 seasons... it starts getting hard to not call that building through FA.

  15. #93
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay View Post
    I don't know anyone who exclusively advocates it, but when 4/5's of your rotation going into the season were signed as free agents in the last 2 seasons... it starts getting hard to not call that building through FA.
    I'd call that patching personally.

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  17. #94
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'd call that patching personally.
    So your telling me that Kevin Correia isn't a cornerstone to build your rotation around?
    "If I knew the world would end tomorrow, I would still plant a tree today."

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