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Thread: Roster Moves coming...

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheeltwinsfan View Post
    You are so right. Is I just my imagination, or have the Twins had more than their share of injuries, compared to other teams, during the last 4-5 years?
    Well the Rangers this year might be worse than the Twins over the last 2.5 years, but the 2011 experience will really stick in the memory bank for a long time to come. The data that I remembered looking at covered the average days lost to DL for the years, 2010-2013, and believe it or not, at the major league level anyway, the Twins were actually the 8th healthiest.




    I think the major league health issues for the Twins have been magnified by the lack of depth options on the 40-man roster, so it might seem like more injuries than are actually taking place. Of course, this year's and last year's losses in the Twins minor leagues are near-catastrophic...Meyer, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Zach Jones, Michael, Landa, and possibly Fernando Romero...immediately come to mind, I'm sure there are a lot more.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Hopefully it is clear I don't think he is ready to be a MLB yet.....I certainly am not calling for that. I believe NB as no SS, and Polanco appears ready to be challenged by the next step in the process. I would like the org to push guys and challenge them, not make them "prove it for a long time" before promoting them. A delta in philosophy, really. I fail to see the downside at this point, frankly.
    I believe the word the Twins prefer is to "master" each level, either that is the requirement or they award "seniority" promotions And yeah, what is the deal on the SS situation at New Britain? Have they promised that vacancy to Levi Michael via his seniority rights? (Whenever it is that Michael regains his health, that is). Or to Niko Goodrum?

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheeltwinsfan View Post
    You are so right. Is I just my imagination, or have the Twins had more than their share of injuries, compared to other teams, during the last 4-5 years?
    No, it happens to every team you just don't notice with Tulo misses large chunks of seasons because we don't follow the Rockies.

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    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheeltwinsfan View Post
    You are so right. Is I just my imagination, or have the Twins had more than their share of injuries, compared to other teams, during the last 4-5 years?
    Not going to go so far as to say it's your imagination, but in 2013 the Twins were among the half dozen or so most healthy teams in MLB in terms of player days lost to the DL. And in 2010-12, they averaged slightly less the league average for lost days. In addition, their injuries to hitters and pitchers roughly matched their proportion on the roster, as opposed to some teams whose pitchers were injured far more than hitters.

    But the perception of them as having difficulty staying healthy isn't very surprising. It didn't help them that the team's two best position players were among the leaders in non-TJ missed days, and that they underperformed upon their returns. And injured prospects have been top prospects like Gibson, Sano, and Buxton.

    Then there's the tendency to wait several days before determining to DL players. It's a judgement call, but when you carry at least twelve pitchers, a position player sitting for several days leaves you a pretty short bench. Go with 13 pitchers or 3 catchers, and you've got one non-catcher reserve when there's an injured non-catcher position player on the bench trying to stay off the DL.

    That, combined with some puzzling roster decisions and bad luck, has left the Twins short of good options several times the past few seasons when injuries and demotions have wiped out Plan A. Put Sam Fuld in center in place of Aaron Hicks for 15 days and nobody bats an eye. Put a double A shortstop out there instead, or an A ball kid at short, and lots of eyebrows go up, and the perception that the Twins are hurt a lot is greatly magnified.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 06-30-2014 at 04:43 PM.

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  7. #65
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    It's called self-selection bias.
    Mystery creates wonder, and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. - N. Armstrong

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    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    For the people surprised by Polanco's return to Ft. Myers, you only need to look as far as the 21 errors he made there so far this year to see why the Twins didn't want to promote him. Eventually if he hits high A pitching he'll get a crack at AA whether the glove improves or not, but whether that's at short in that scenario, well, no idea.

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  11. #67
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    No, it happens to every team you just don't notice with Tulo misses large chunks of seasons because we don't follow the Rockies.
    Partly that, and partly that the Rockies would probably replace him with a 25 year old middle infielder with a .720 OPS in nearly 700 MLB PA's instead of a kid from A ball.

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    Padres leading the DL days is no surprise.

    Carlos Q could probably hurt himself walking back to the dugout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Hopefully it is clear I don't think he is ready to be a MLB yet.....I certainly am not calling for that. I believe NB as no SS, and Polanco appears ready to be challenged by the next step in the process. I would like the org to push guys and challenge them, not make them "prove it for a long time" before promoting them. A delta in philosophy, really. I fail to see the downside at this point, frankly.
    If memory serves me correctly(and it may not) Kubel went from High A to AA to AAA to the majors all in one year as a 21 year old. It doesn't happen too often but he dominated each level to get to the majors in September? I think. He actually played in the playoffs that year, then got hurt in the Fall League.

    As someone else said, I think you take it case by case. I expect Polanco will likely play at AA sometime this year, but since he's not dominating a High A, I don't know how critical it is to get him there immediately or necessarily at all. He has things to learn, it is largely more important that he playing everyday rather than the exact level he is playing at, I believe.

    Sometimes, (not necessarily in this case) promoting a guy means juggling players all the way up and down the system. Even perhaps releasing someone. I don't believe releasing someone should ever be done lightly, even though it is an unfortunate part of the overall process. I am trying to point out that promotions aren't or shouldn't be a random thing, this guy is having a hot week or a couple of good starts, let's get him to the next level, shouldn't be the way promotions are handled.

    There is enough shuffling around because of injuries, sometimes. I remember a few years ago when one of the Twins minor league catchers played at all four full season levels, but never as the starter. He was shuffled around whenever someone was injured so whoever the main catcher was at each level could stay where he was as a the starter. That has to be a terrible feeling as a player, he was clearly unimportant to the Twins future, though he was serving a useful role.

    I think we as fans, sometimes forget we are dealing with real people. There are possibly some really good reasons for the Twins to get Polanco back to Fort Myers. I don't know if there is, but if there was, it is quite possibly none of our business. A great many things dealing with players should be kept as private as possible. In such a public business, that isn't always possible, but the Twins shouldn't necessarily explain the reasons for promotions or non-promotions sometimes.

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  16. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by labombo View Post
    partly that, and mostly that the rockies would probably replace him with a 25 year old middle infielder with a .720 ops in nearly 700 mlb pa's instead of a kid from a ball.
    fify
    Last edited by jokin; 06-30-2014 at 10:36 PM.

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  18. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post

    As someone else said, I think you take it case by case. I expect Polanco will likely play at AA sometime this year, but since he's not dominating a High A, I don't know how critical it is to get him there immediately or necessarily at all. He has things to learn, it is largely more important that he playing everyday rather than the exact level he is playing at, I believe.
    What? This is not exactly true. Despite being 3 years below the average age for the Florida State League, among his peer group at SS, Polanco leads all SS in:

    OBP/SLG/OPS/wOBA/wRC+/BB%/BB*K/BB/SF/Runs scored/HR

    He's second for all SS for:

    AVG/Hits/RBI/ISO

    I'm not sure what more can be asked of a performance and a performer to be labeled as "dominating". Granted, there's work to be done in the field.

    There are 4 guys listed as SS at Fort Myers, while there are none listed at SS in New Britain. While Mejia and Michael are on the DL for the Miracle, I would expect that Polanco will earn a promotion when the MI depth issues are resolved. I would concur that, just as in the case with Santana, it's far more important that he be playing SS everyday, somewhere, than being juggled around the organization.

    And BTW, Polanco went 3 for 4 tonight with a BB and Double.
    Last edited by jokin; 07-01-2014 at 12:24 AM.

  19. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    For the people surprised by Polanco's return to Ft. Myers, you only need to look as far as the 21 errors he made there so far this year to see why the Twins didn't want to promote him. Eventually if he hits high A pitching he'll get a crack at AA whether the glove improves or not, but whether that's at short in that scenario, well, no idea.
    He's hitting High A pitching, Bombo, pretty well. After I researched it (see above), it's even better than I imagined. It even looks like the numbers he's producing would work at 2nd Base, as well. FWIW, when I saw him play, it was at 2nd for Cedar Rapids, he looked very smooth in the field, and was crushing Low A pitching as a teenager, and I thought, besides Buxton, he was the guy in CR that looked the most like a future big leaguer, but not on a track faster than Buxton to the majors (but I'll defer to Jim Crikket for the final word on that type of analysis).

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  21. #73
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    I believe Polanco was sent back to Ft Meyers for one simple reason. It was easy. He jet-sets for a week, gets his cup of coffee, and then gets sent down to the most comfortable and familiar place he knows, temporarily I'd guess. Straight to AA sounds good, and might seem warranted and the surface, but back to FTM makes sense for a week or two. As was pointed out previously, Polanco was signed for his glove with some hitting potential. The hitting potential is showing signs of being a great reality. Defensively, he's been moved around, probably more than he should have been. Part of that has been due to the presence of the equally young and talented Goodrum, who some forget about. This season, the Twins have made a concerted effort to allow Polanco to be a fixture at SS. Personally, I don't worry much about his errors for a few reasons: one is his youth, he has routines to learn, two has been the position shuffling, three is that the majority of his errors came early in the season, four is that milb errors can be deceptive based not only on youth and learning, but also lesser quality infields, and even quality everyday 1B who might save an error or two.

    I do think its a bit amusing how we get wrapped up in promotions of young talent, both at the ML level and the milb level. The Twins get blasted for promoting the likes of Hicks too soon, when it doesn't work out, and then there is clamoring to quickly promote others. I don't know that there is an easy equation to follow, but there are not that many Trouts and Harpers of the world who are ready to explode so early. It doesn't mean a kid can't become an absolute stud, it just means they are all on their own time table.

    The Twins are very traditional and predictable with their promotions. They look for dominance at a level, as everyone does, but they also look for improvement. After all, would you really expect a young player to be promoted while raw and struggling just based on talent alone? The Twins have traditionally made a series of moves in their milb system about mid-season. And the milb seasons have just barely past their mid-season. There have already been a few promotions at the AA level, and the rookie levels just began to play. Give it another week, or two, and I beg you see a few more big promotions, stRting with Polanco and Berrios.

    Here is something to consider: the youth of the Twins top 10 prospects. Heck, even the top 20 prospects. Before the season even began, and unfortunate injuries hit, people were talking about 20 y.o.'s Sano and Buxton being in our everyday lineup. Everybody loved Polanco and doubted Santana, for example. But who has been one of the biggest surprises and catalysts for the Twins this season?

    I hate to say it again folks, but it's about enjoying improvement and being patient. I would love to see a comparison league-wide of top 10-20 prospects by age and experience. Meyer and May, 1st seasons in AAA, Rosario-suspended 50 games and never played above AA, Buxton and Burton- injured, never played above AA or high A, Santana- a few games at AAA before promotion and excelling, Polanco-high A before temp promotion, and only 20 y.o., Barrios-also only 20 and dominating high A.

    I could go on but won't and don't need to. There are big promotions of big talents coming soon. Wishful thinking doesn't give us a championship team of 25 and younger players.

    Now, if it's August and expected promotions aren't taking place, make the signs, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead on the Twins front office.

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  23. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    I believe Polanco was sent back to Ft Meyers for one simple reason. It was easy. He jet-sets for a week, gets his cup of coffee, and then gets sent down to the most comfortable and familiar place he knows, temporarily I'd guess. Straight to AA sounds good, and might seem warranted and the surface, but back to FTM makes sense for a week or two. As was pointed out previously, Polanco was signed for his glove with some hitting potential. The hitting potential is showing signs of being a great reality. Defensively, he's been moved around, probably more than he should have been. Part of that has been due to the presence of the equally young and talented Goodrum, who some forget about. This season, the Twins have made a concerted effort to allow Polanco to be a fixture at SS. Personally, I don't worry much about his errors for a few reasons: one is his youth, he has routines to learn, two has been the position shuffling, three is that the majority of his errors came early in the season, four is that milb errors can be deceptive based not only on youth and learning, but also lesser quality infields, and even quality everyday 1B who might save an error or two.

    I do think its a bit amusing how we get wrapped up in promotions of young talent, both at the ML level and the milb level. The Twins get blasted for promoting the likes of Hicks too soon, when it doesn't work out, and then there is clamoring to quickly promote others. I don't know that there is an easy equation to follow, but there are not that many Trouts and Harpers of the world who are ready to explode so early. It doesn't mean a kid can't become an absolute stud, it just means they are all on their own time table.

    The Twins are very traditional and predictable with their promotions. They look for dominance at a level, as everyone does, but they also look for improvement. After all, would you really expect a young player to be promoted while raw and struggling just based on talent alone? The Twins have traditionally made a series of moves in their milb system about mid-season. And the milb seasons have just barely past their mid-season. There have already been a few promotions at the AA level, and the rookie levels just began to play. Give it another week, or two, and I beg you see a few more big promotions, stRting with Polanco and Berrios.

    Here is something to consider: the youth of the Twins top 10 prospects. Heck, even the top 20 prospects. Before the season even began, and unfortunate injuries hit, people were talking about 20 y.o.'s Sano and Buxton being in our everyday lineup. Everybody loved Polanco and doubted Santana, for example. But who has been one of the biggest surprises and catalysts for the Twins this season?

    I hate to say it again folks, but it's about enjoying improvement and being patient. I would love to see a comparison league-wide of top 10-20 prospects by age and experience. Meyer and May, 1st seasons in AAA, Rosario-suspended 50 games and never played above AA, Buxton and Burton- injured, never played above AA or high A, Santana- a few games at AAA before promotion and excelling, Polanco-high A before temp promotion, and only 20 y.o., Barrios-also only 20 and dominating high A.

    I could go on but won't and don't need to. There are big promotions of big talents coming soon. Wishful thinking doesn't give us a championship team of 25 and younger players.

    Now, if it's August and expected promotions aren't taking place, make the signs, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead on the Twins front office.
    Great post. The Miracle are still short-handed in the IF until Mejia and Michael return. And it only makes sense that Polanco would go back to his home base to cover that need and get his affairs in order. It's obvious from the way that the New Britain roster is constructed, that one SS, or even two, could be promoted in the next few weeks.

    On the Berrios front, Brett Lee returned to pitch tonight for Ft Myers, so Berrios is probably in position to move up soon, as well.

  24. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    What? This is not exactly true. Despite being 3 years below the average age for the Florida State League, among his peer group at SS, Polanco leads all SS in: OBP/SLG/OPS/wOBA/wRC+/BB%/BB*K/BB/SF/Runs scored/HRHe's second for all SS for:AVG/Hits/RBI/ISOI'm not sure what more can be asked of a performance and a performer to be labeled as "dominating". Granted, there's work to be done in the field.There are 4 guys listed as SS at Fort Myers, while there are none listed at SS in New Britain. While Mejia and Michael are on the DL for the Miracle, I would expect that Polanco will earn a promotion when the MI depth issues are resolved. I would concur that, just as in the case with Santana, it's far more important that he be playing SS everyday, somewhere, than being juggled around the organization.And BTW, Polanco went 3 for 4 tonight with a BB and Double.
    Leading the league in hitting for shortstops may not mean very much as there could be a league full of light hitting shortstops. Now if you said he was top 15 in the league for these stats, you would have a much stronger argument for promotion based on hitting alone. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Well the Rangers this year might be worse than the Twins over the last 2.5 years, but the 2011 experience will really stick in the memory bank for a long time to come. The data that I remembered looking at covered the average days lost to DL for the years, 2010-2013, and believe it or not, at the major league level anyway, the Twins were actually the 8th healthiest.




    I think the major league health issues for the Twins have been magnified by the lack of depth options on the 40-man roster, so it might seem like more injuries than are actually taking place. Of course, this year's and last year's losses in the Twins minor leagues are near-catastrophic...Meyer, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Zach Jones, Michael, Landa, and possibly Fernando Romero...immediately come to mind, I'm sure there are a lot more.
    I wonder what the chart looks like ordered by career WAR of the players on the the DL? Self-selection bias for sure, but the two years they had Mauer and/or Morneau on the shelf for significant time was a killer. This year is not really so bad in comparison. It's the healthy players that are not performing that is the problem more than injured players.

  26. #77
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    "To make room on the active roster, the Twins optioned Pedro Florimonto Triple-A Rochester and also optioned 20-year-old Jorge Polanco back to Class A Advanced Fort Myers. "

    We sure they just didn't get their plane tickets mixed up?

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  28. #78
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    I'd really like to see them swap out Florimon on the 40 for someone like Bernier. We need to have an option if something happens again.

    Florimon is no longer an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    For the people surprised by Polanco's return to Ft. Myers, you only need to look as far as the 21 errors he made there so far this year to see why the Twins didn't want to promote him. Eventually if he hits high A pitching he'll get a crack at AA whether the glove improves or not, but whether that's at short in that scenario, well, no idea.
    Agreed his error rate was atrocious, which is probably why is he back in High A.

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    Terry Ryan's "not giving up" on Florimon, which means he's going to be using a 40-Man spot until Mr. Gordon needs it.

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