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Thread: Pino: one more start?

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Loved his performance. Pino should get a couple more starts. If he continues to pitch well, and May is called up, I foresee a move back to 14 pitchers.

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bsharpp View Post
    It pisses me off that there is no salary cap.
    I've never understood how a salary cap would help baseball.
    It seems that NFL teams either use it as an excuse to not sign guys or give them what they're worth, or the teams that really want to win work around the cap.
    I wouldn't trust baseball owners with a cap. Most of them would be the excuse makers.
    Not to mention - with teams worth over a billion dollars, they seem to have enough money to pay these guys.
    I don't care what a guys making. I'm interested in seeing their amazing play.

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  5. #43
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Predictably Pino went and made me eat crow last night (I'm not the only one). OK great, that's the beauty of the dark side. When you win you win, and when you lose, you still win.

    Yes he deserves another start.

  6. #44
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I imagine Pino is hoping for at least 42 more days on the roster

  7. #45
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer amjgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Just to put things in perspective, the Twins stay true to form, and celebrate debuting yet another arm rescued out of AAAA obscurity. Meanwhile, the much-maligned Miami Marlins- on the same night we enjoyed the fine, but aged, Pino Noir- debuted yet another member of their impressive string of hot young pitching prospects- this time, 2012 First Round draft pick, Andrew Heaney.

    His first MLB game line, at the tender age of 23? Going up against Mets ace Zach Wheeler, Heaney achieved- 6 IP 1 ER, 4 H, 3 K, 1 BB, !.50 ERA. Seems more like a debut line the kid can build on, not rest- and eventually- reflect on.
    It's one thing to say that Pino isn't the right call because he's 30 and is not "part of the future" and then to argue for Andrew Heaney, but you're using Heaney in the "I don't have any faith in Pino argument"

    Pino's numbers, across the board, are superior this year and were also superior to Heaney yesterday.

    Who do I have more faith in next week? Pino. Not Heaney.

    Nothing about Heaney's scouting report looks anything different than if there was a Pino scouting report based on his pitching this year. The only difference is that Heaney is a LHP.

  8. #46
    Senior Member Double-A
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    There are plenty of pitchers that have successful careers with the type of stuff Pino has. Probably he will not be the ace of the team, but he is not a "pitch to contact" that gets lucky for a while. He had 7 strike-outs swinging. Of course he can fail in the long run. But it is not obvious that he will.

  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by amjgt View Post
    It's one thing to say that Pino isn't the right call because he's 30 and is not "part of the future" and then to argue for Andrew Heaney, but you're using Heaney in the "I don't have any faith in Pino argument"

    Pino's numbers, across the board, are superior this year and were also superior to Heaney yesterday.

    Who do I have more faith in next week? Pino. Not Heaney.

    Nothing about Heaney's scouting report looks anything different than if there was a Pino scouting report based on his pitching this year. The only difference is that Heaney is a LHP.
    Uhhh, Pino was in his 8th year of AA or AAA ball counting this season, are we really sure that being LHP is the only difference? Heaney is 23 and it's reasonably logical that he hasn't yet approached his ceiling, and that isn't just my opinion:

    ScoutingBook Combine Ranking (6/20/2014): #21
    MLB.com/MiLB.com Season Preview: #29
    Scout.com/FOX Sports: #41
    ESPN: #34
    Minor League Ball (Sickels): #38
    Baseball America 2014: #30
    Baseball Prospectus: #30
    Feel free to put all of your faith into Pino, but there are multiple reasons the Twins have never had a Starting Pitcher make his major league debut at age 30.5 before. You're missing the point of my argument. The Marlins aren't debuting any 30 year old career minor leaguers, they are breaking in a passel-full of quality pitchers with high upside at very young ages- including yesterday, promoting their #1 prospect to the already-good Starting Rotation.

    FYI, the Marlins currently have 9 pitchers, age 24 or younger on their 25-man or DL. And that total rises to 12 on the 40-man. By contrast, the Twins have- ZERO, ZIP, NADA under-24 pitchers on their 25-man, and all of two, both age 24, May and Tonkin, on their 40-man roster.
    Last edited by jokin; 06-20-2014 at 01:59 PM.

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  11. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    30 year old rookies who throw in the high 80s don't inspire much confidence.
    Meh, recent Twins rotation 2014 average FB velocities to the nearest MPH according to Pitch F/X:
    Hughes - 92
    Gibson, Pelfrey - 91
    Nolasco, Correia, Deduno - 90
    Pino - 89

    He's not necessarily an outlier in terms of uninspirational velocity... but on the 30-year-old rookie point, I have to agree with you.

  12. #49
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer amjgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDean View Post
    Meh, recent Twins rotation 2014 average FB velocities to the nearest MPH according to Pitch F/X:
    Hughes - 92
    Gibson, Pelfrey - 91
    Nolasco, Correia, Deduno - 90
    Pino - 89

    He's not necessarily an outlier in terms of uninspirational velocity... but on the 30-year-old rookie point, I have to agree with you.

    sorry.... I meant to quote jokin's last post. I am on my phone and can't do much about it at this point



    I think you are missing the point of my counter argument. Would I, organizationally, take Heaney over Pino? Of course.

    But you specifically quoted someone who said they had no confidence in Pino. My argument is this: in terms of having confidence in one pitcher over another right now, Pino should inspire more confidence than Heaney.

    i don't care about the peripherals, advanced statistics, age, whatever.... Pino gives his team a better chance to win next Tuesday than Heaney does. I base this on actual performance over the last 3 months. Over this time Pino outperformed Heaney is just about every way
    Last edited by amjgt; 06-20-2014 at 03:00 PM.

  13. #50
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    I havent read this thread so this might have already been touched on but even if he doesnt work out as a starter, why not put him in the bullpen?

    He knows how to pitch and he can be the long man instead of Deduno. Deduno is okay but he lacks control which usually adds fire to the fuel when the starter has a bad game. Pino should be able to keep the game within reach in most occasions.

  14. #51
    Just like it helps every professional sport other than baseball. It wouldn't be all about the big money teams being able to outspend everybody else.

  15. #52
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    It's going to be interesting to see how long Pino's "deceptive delivery" plays. Apparently he has great control and ball movement.

    "We didn't know too much about him," White Sox manager Robin Ventura said. "He's got a bit of an unusual delivery. It's deceptive, to make his off-speed stuff a little bit better. He doesn't throw that hard, but when you're watching it, it looks a little harder."

    http://www.kspr.com/sports/pinos-deb...84228It'll be interesting to see what happens as teams get more film of him.
    Funny thing is that unlike previous seasons with MiLB.tv, there is plenty of film if a MLB teams' manager and coaches want to put their rear ends down to watch on demand. Every single pitch that Pino threw this season is on film. But it is work to do that, and Ventura did not feel like doing it. He likely gets that stuff from the scouting department usually. No excuses for laziness...

    Totally not surprised with this start, based on what I watched him do last May. He deserves to be on this 25-man roster, based on who else is on it. He might be in a swing role eventually, but so far so good.
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  16. #53
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Funny thing is that unlike previous seasons with MiLB.tv, there is plenty of film if a MLB teams' manager and coaches want to put their rear ends down to watch on demand.
    Learn something new every day.

  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyorev View Post
    I've never understood how a salary cap would help baseball.
    It seems that NFL teams either use it as an excuse to not sign guys or give them what they're worth, or the teams that really want to win work around the cap.
    I wouldn't trust baseball owners with a cap. Most of them would be the excuse makers.
    Not to mention - with teams worth over a billion dollars, they seem to have enough money to pay these guys.
    I don't care what a guys making. I'm interested in seeing their amazing play.

    The value of a cap is self evident. It creates a level playing field for all teams to operate. It is why all sports gravitate towards a cap. In baseball you have a handful of teams that have three or four times the revenue to spend on finding and retaining talent.
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 06-21-2014 at 09:27 PM. Reason: removed overly personal comment

  18. #55
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    The value of a cap is self evident. It creates a level playing field for all teams to operate. It is why all sports gravitate towards a cap. In baseball you have a handful of teams that have three or four times the revenue to spend on finding and retaining talent.
    As long as those big market teams see fit to continue giving massive contracts to the Jacoby Ellsburys of the world, I'm fine with no cap.
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 06-22-2014 at 12:39 AM. Reason: removed overly personal comment in quoted text

  19. #56
    Senior Member Triple-A Danchat's Avatar
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    Does anyone think that Pino should move to the bullpen? Some of his success at AAA have come from there and to be honest, while I want the guy to succeed, he isn't an option for starting past this season. We should see how well he can handle the late innings.

  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danchat View Post
    Does anyone think that Pino should move to the bullpen? Some of his success at AAA have come from there and to be honest, while I want the guy to succeed, he isn't an option for starting past this season. We should see how well he can handle the late innings.
    As I posted early in this thread, Pino throws lots of strikes and craftily mixes location and speed. And going 1-2-3 in the first inning all 8 AAA and Twins starts seems to indicate that he should be given strong consideration for the pen. And further on the bright side, were he to replace either Burton or Guerrier, the pitching staff average age would drop.

  21. #58
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    I was skeptical of his K rate throwing mid-high 80s but after watching him I can see it better. His delivery has a lot of deception. That right shoulder & arm are completely hidden by his body & come out of nowhere at the last second.

    If he can repeat that delivery with his fastball & off speed he will continue to strike out 5 a game. Obviously he has a little less margin for error throwing 88 but that delivery makes it look 92-94.
    Last edited by Trevor0333; 06-20-2014 at 07:27 PM.

  22. #59
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    More than likely, Pino will be a good story for a short period of time. Yes, he might carve out a niche in the pen, probably fighting it out with Deduno and possible Swarzak. Doubtful he will be a "30 year old finds himself a regular fixture in the rotation for the next few years" success story. And just as Correia, long term, will not stand in the way of May and Meyer, possibly Darnell, neither will Pino presumably.

    That being said, the game he pitched last night was a real delight to watch. Unprepared or not to face him, Pino was poised, hit his spots, was around the zone all night, and did a fantastic job of changing speeds and mixing things up. The best way to sum it up was that he really "pitched" and never looked like a thrower.

    It was a joy to watch.

  23. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    As long as those big market teams see fit to continue giving massive contracts to the Jacoby Ellsburys of the world, I'm fine with no cap.
    Fortunately the Yankee's are their own worst enemy. Revenue advantage has not proven the cure all to WS victory but it does appear to allow teams to be good and not have to sit at the bottom of the standings.

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