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Thread: How much credit does Anderson get for Hughes

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Anderson deserves as much credit for Hughes and he does for Correia, Nolasco and Burton

    If you look at Hughes' numbers, you will see that he is pretty much the same pitcher he has been the last 3 seasons with 2 notable differences: He cut both his BB% and HR/FB to a third. I would guess to venture that the first is likely the result of not tinkering with a new pitcher every third week like he did when with the Yankees and maybe feeling more confident getting out of New York. I hope that the second is sustainable, but the league average is 10 and he is around 6. We shall see, but happy that he is finally catching up to his peripherals
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  2. #42
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    Anderson is part of an organizational weakness that we've seen over the years when it comes to starters without the quality pitches needed to attack the strike zone. I would put much more of the blame on management for the pitchers he has been provided to work with, but overall I don't think he's very effective.

    Hughes is clearly a guy that takes the lead on his own approach and adjustments. Between that and the fact he's new to the team, I don't see much reason for Anderson to get credit.
    He's new is precisely why Anderson deserves some credit. Hughes is working with new coaches and has had a complete turnaround in success.

    Since everything happens behind the scenes, to me, there are really only two approaches to take and maintain intellectual fidelity:

    1) Always credit/blame the player alone
    2) Always credit/blame the coaching for their part

    Picking and choosing just comes off as deliberately dishonest.

  3. #43
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    He has definitely helped Guerrier out. His numbers are way better in a Twins uniform.

    Corriea has pitched the same here as he did before he came here. so I don't see how Anderson could have an affect on him per se.

    Hughes does appear to have made adjustments though and that could be from meeting with Anderson. All Hughes did was go back to being aggressive like when he was in the bullpen and is mostly a 2 pitch pitcher with an occasional curve thrown in. That sounds like something the Twins would encourage.

    Burton's troubles are from a decrease in velocity and nibbling as a result netting more walks.

    The bullpen as a hole seems to be pitching at or above their talent level. And Deduno has been able to control his fastball a little better netting fewer walks though not fully a 6 inning pitcher though.

    Gibson seems to be the one we really want to see him work some magic and make him a 200 inning pitcher with a 3.50 ERA.

  4. #44
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    Also wanted to point out that our best prospects May and Meyer are likely going to come up with some wildness that the Twins will want worked out if possible. that will be fun to keep an eye on as well.

  5. #45
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    I've always thought Anderson was a solid pitching coach, some of that has dimmed a little in the last couple years. Still I think he's gotten far too much blame for not being able to turn poor pitchers into good ones. Considering the type of talent the team has given him, for the most part the staff has produced better than the talent available. People always want to point to Liriano but he is again back to & will always be Jekyl & Hyde.

    I have a feeling Anderson's biggest weakness is not his ability to get the most out of the talent given to him. But not being able to tell the FO that this guy just isn't going to cut it and saying we'll do our best to make him better. Which ends up being not much because they stunk.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor0333 View Post
    Considering the type of talent the team has given him, for the most part the staff has produced better than the talent available..
    He had 2 Cy Young award winners (Santana and Dickie) and 4 guys who finished in the top ten in the Cy Young award in voting voting (Lohse, Liriano, Nathan, Rogers) Santana credits the same guy who Pedro credits for his Cy Youngs (hint: it is not Anderson)

    And all those 6 got better immediately after they left the Twins (compare their last Twins' season with their first seasons away.) Go figure.
    Last edited by Thrylos; 06-13-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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  8. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post

    And all those 6 got better immediately after they left the Twins (compare their last Twins' season with their first seasons away.) Go figure.
    I have to agree with you Thrylos and use your comment as a taking-off point. Others on this site in the past have compiled the stats of pitchers coming into the org and leaving the org and having their stats significantly dip and rise respectively, after working with Anderson. Hughes appears to be an exception however. There are surely a myriad of causes for this, but Anderson has to be a large piece of that pie. I really don't like or trust him as a coach. Even if he is or was good, sometimes it's good to shake things up. It's not like we have the Popovich of pitching coaches back there; maybe it's time to give someone else a try.

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  10. #48
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    He had 2 Cy Young award winners (Santana and Dickie) and 4 guys who finished in the top ten in the Cy Young award in voting voting (Lohse, Liriano, Nathan, Rogers) Santana credits the same guy who Pedro credits for his Cy Youngs (hint: it is not Anderson)

    And all those 6 got better immediately after they left the Twins (compare their last Twins' season with their first season away.) Go figure.
    Lohse got better, I won't argue there.

    You've got some revisionist history going on with the rest. Santana was pretty darn good when he was with the Twins, even won a couple of Cy Youngs. Nathan was as well, and his last year was bad, but that might have had something to do with his TJS. Rogers was good before he came to MN, good the one year he was there, and good when he left. Liriano had good seasons in MN and bad ones. He had one good year in Pittsburg after he left and has turned back into his former self. He's being typical Liriano. You might have something with Dickie, except that he debuted in 2001 and didn't go a season without spending significant time in the minors until 2011. He spent two years with the Mets before he morphed into a really good pitcher. From here it looks like a lot of people couldn't harness his talents.

    I'm not a fan of Anderson, but I don't see how this is a good example of his failure.

    Edit: Forgot to add that Lohse, Santana, Liriano, and Dickie also switched to the NL, and Rogers was 38 when he got here.
    Last edited by diehardtwinsfan; 06-13-2014 at 08:23 PM.

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  12. #49
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benji21 View Post
    I have to agree with you Thrylos and use your comment as a taking-off point. Others on this site in the past have compiled the stats of pitchers coming into the org and leaving the org and having their stats significantly dip and rise respectively, after working with Anderson.
    Do you mean something like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by benji21 View Post
    Hughes appears to be an exception however. There are surely a myriad of causes for this, but Anderson has to be a large piece of that pie. I really don't like or trust him as a coach. Even if he is or was good, sometimes it's good to shake things up. It's not like we have the Popovich of pitching coaches back there; maybe it's time to give someone else a try.
    If you disregard W-L, and ERA, Only 2 Hughes' numbers this season (and their derivatives, like FIP, xFIP, BABIP etc) are significantly different from his last 2 seasons: BB% and HR/FB. Not sure how much Anderson had anything to do with it.
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  13. #50
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Lohse got better, I won't argue there.

    You've got some revisionist history going on with the rest. Santana was pretty darn good when he was with the Twins, even won a couple of Cy Youngs. Nathan was as well, and his last year was bad, but that might have had something to do with his TJS. Rogers was good before he came to MN, good the one year he was there, and good when he left. Liriano had good seasons in MN and bad ones. He had one good year in Pittsburg after he left and has turned back into his former self. He's being typical Liriano. You might have something with Dickie, except that he debuted in 2001 and didn't go a season without spending significant time in the minors until 2011. He spent two years with the Mets before he morphed into a really good pitcher. From here it looks like a lot of people couldn't harness his talents.

    I'm not a fan of Anderson, but I don't see how this is a good example of his failure.
    That list was an answer to the statement that Anderson did not have anyone to work with. And you cannot compare a Nathan on his peak to a 38 year old Nathan, or a Rogers for that point. If you want to see a (3-4 year old now) list of people who got better after they left the Twins and Andy, feel free to look here.
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  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    That list was an answer to the statement that Anderson did not have anyone to work with. And you cannot compare a Nathan on his peak to a 38 year old Nathan, or a Rogers for that point. If you want to see a (3-4 year old now) list of people who got better after they left the Twins and Andy, feel free to look here.
    How can you use Dickey as a way to refute the idea that Anderson didn't have anyone to work with? Because he had one decent season and one really good season YEARS after several other teams gave up on him?

  15. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    He had 2 Cy Young award winners (Santana and Dickie) and 4 guys who finished in the top ten in the Cy Young award in voting voting (Lohse, Liriano, Nathan, Rogers) Santana credits the same guy who Pedro credits for his Cy Youngs (hint: it is not Anderson)

    And all those 6 got better immediately after they left the Twins (compare their last Twins' season with their first seasons away.) Go figure.
    Dickey, really. He had 1 unbelievable season and immediately went back to average. Knuckleballers are a different animal. Lohse spent a few years with the best pitching coach & staff in baseball by far after he left here. If we are going to compare what Anderson gets compared to Dave Duncan then we may as well give up, no one is as good as him. Nathan was as good here as he was anywhere else & Rogers was here 1 year when he was 38.

    Im not going to argue Anderson is a good pitching coach, I think he's solid which is about middle of the road league wide wise. I just think he's been given too many below average pitchers people expected him to make good.

  16. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    That list was an answer to the statement that Anderson did not have anyone to work with. And you cannot compare a Nathan on his peak to a 38 year old Nathan, or a Rogers for that point. If you want to see a (3-4 year old now) list of people who got better after they left the Twins and Andy, feel free to look here.
    That list is filled with very mediocre pitchers other than Garza & I don't care who you are as a pitching coach anyone is going to be better after their 22-23 age seasons. That list to me proves nothing & I don't think Anderson is a real good pitching coach. He's a bit above average in my book. That doesnt mean you dont go find someone better but pinning the mediocre pitching squarely on him isn't telling the entire story.

  17. #54
    Senior Member Triple-A Paul Pleiss's Avatar
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    I'm not a noted Rick Anderson hater. Phil Hughes emergence this season isn't going to change that. I don't think Rick Anderson is worth the price of the uniform on his back, or the pack of gum in my pocket. He's Gardy's guy, and that's it, and I'm sure that's the only reason he's still around.

    I can't stay Anderson. I have no good things to say, so I'll say no more.

  18. #55
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    Is Curt Young a better pitching coach than Mickey Callaway? Is Callaway a better pitching coach than Mike Butcher or Jim Hickey? That a pitcher goes somewhere and does better tha he did elsewhere a credit to the coach? So many different factors, age, experience, heath go into a numbers for pitchers.

    The Twins pitching staff has over time under Anderson has a fip, xfip and SIERRA lower than the team ERA under Anderson. They have a WPA of 28. As a whole then, the Twins staff pitches better than what is expected of their talent. Not by much. So not great, but not bad either.

  19. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pleiss View Post
    I'm not a noted Rick Anderson hater. Phil Hughes emergence this season isn't going to change that. I don't think Rick Anderson is worth the price of the uniform on his back, or the pack of gum in my pocket. He's Gardy's guy, and that's it, and I'm sure that's the only reason he's still around.

    I can't stay Anderson. I have no good things to say, so I'll say no more.
    I can understand the sentiment but it's like saying Tice was a bad coach. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Considering the resources he was given I don't think you can have a definitive answer.

  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Since everything happens behind the scenes, to me, there are really only two approaches to take and maintain intellectual fidelity:

    1) Always credit/blame the player alone
    2) Always credit/blame the coaching for their part

    Picking and choosing just comes off as deliberately dishonest.
    That's an arbitrary dichotomy. I cited objective facts that led to my view that Anderson is not likely to be a major factor in Hughes' success. You can agree or disagree, but logically it makes no sense to say the coach "always" needs to be a factor when a player does better or worse.

    In fact, I think it's clear that both your options are false. We know for sure that coaching can be relevant, so #1 is out. And we know that players can make adjustments on their own, ruling out #2 also. So the only 'honest' way of looking at it is to recognize that each circumstance is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Just curious, but are you willing to expand on your take?
    I've just never been an Anderson fan, and really had my doubts as to how much he's helped the pitchers. No doubt in his years he's helped some I'm sure, but not a great percentage. And with Hughes, he was so happy to be here in spring training, I just feel he's taken the ball and run with it, and done so all on his own. He's confident, was when he came here, and enjoying being here.

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    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    I seem to recall Dick Such wasn't exactly the darling of the fan base or media, either.

    I'd rate the catcher as being on equal footing with the pitching coach for in-game performance.
    Mystery creates wonder, and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. - N. Armstrong

  24. #60
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Ok...here I go.

    I am not an apologist. Just a realist.

    I think a manager or coach, maybe more so in baseball than some sports, is treated much like a QB in football. When the team wins, the QB gets the credit. When the team loses, it's the QB's fault. Baseball is a team sport, never forget. But there are also a lot of one-on-one battles that take place. A pitching coach can't make a pitcher throw harder, or have more talent. What can he do? Well, he can increase focus. He can help repetitive motions and mechanics. He can suggest different grips that might prove better. He can move a pitcher to the left or right of the rubber for better results. He can deal with approach and psychology, getting the pitcher to believe in his stuff, trust his defense, change the order of his pitches thrown. He has an impact, but it also depends on the head and arm of the pitcher.

    Im not going to defend Anderson as the best pitching coach around. And if some of the moves the Twins have made over the past few seasons are a result of Anderson recommendations, (maybe, maybe not, don't know) then he bears as much blame as anyone in the FO for the past 3 seasons. It is very, very easy for critics to find blame and scapegoats where they will. But let's take a little deeper look at the 12+ seasons in regard to Twins pitching with Anderson as pitching coach.

    1) From his early days, a list of some of the pitchers Anderson has worked with: Radke, Santana, Liriano, Fiore, Guardado, Milton, Rincon, Romero, Trombley, Mays, Balfour, Hawkins, Crain, Guerrier, Nathan, Baker, Silva, Neshak, Perkins, Neshak, Reyes, Blackburn, Slowey, Breslow, Reyes, Pavano, Rauschenberg, Swarzak.

    A couple of these names are out of baseball now, but enjoyed their best success in a Twins uniform. A couple were injured and rebounded after rehab, and after they left the Twins. A couple had solid seasons after they left, not necessarily better, but left via FA. And those decisions are on Anderson?

    Santana was nurtured in to a multi Cy Young winner under Anderson's tutelage. Liriano was a top rookie performer before hurting his arm. (Undoubtedly Anderson's fault) Upon his return, he actually pitched very well in streaks. He pitched poorly for the White Sox, and it was reported he frustrated their pitching coach. Last year he rebounded and pitched very well for the NL Pirates. (Also Anderson's fault) And this year he has continued his Jeckyl/Hyde career.

    RA Dickey and Kyle Lohse? Please! Just as Hughes has found a new and successful home, Dickey left the Twins after ONE season, had 2 solid seasons before his Cy Young season. Lohse spent 5+ so-so seasons in Minnesota before leaving. He spent a poor season in '07 with the Reds and Phillies before a solid '08 season with the Cardinals, a poor season in '09, followed by a couple solid/good seasons. (Amazing how Anderson has the capacity to direct the FO to dump a pitcher who will have success 2 or 3 years after leaving the Twins)

    2) Pitching to contact. I am soooo tired of this concept. Does anyone understand what this means? Somewhere between now and two years ago, Anderson himself gave an interview about this subject. It has nothing to do with SO's. Anderson even addressed this issue. (I wish I could pull this interview out of the past!) What PTC means is throwing strikes! Trusting in your stuff and the defense behind you.

    Bull Durham and Crash Davis flashback! LOL

    Brunansky, (some claim Molitor as well, no objection on my part) gain accolades for the Twins currently working hard on counts and gaining walks to improve the offense and run production. But the Twins NOT waking batters has little relevance?

    Can we all at least agree that walks tend to kill?

    3) 2002-2010 with Anderson as pitching coach, the Twins AL ERA rankings were: 6th, 7th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 11th, and 5th.

    2002-2010 with Anderson as pitching coach, the Twins AL rank for BB were: 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, and 1st.

    Even with the poor pitching we've endured the past 3 seasons, along with poor play and production overall, the Twins staff has still ranked 6th, 6th and 3rd in walks allowed.

    Even this season, with a high ERA that has been declining, (high mostly due to Pelfrey and Correia) our BB ranks second in the AL.

    From 2002 to 2010 the Twins won the division 6 times in 9 years. In 2010, our primary rotation that season included such studs as Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano and Pavano. Guys like Fox, Manship and Burnett helped out. The pen was anchored by Capps and Rausch, Crain, Perkins, Guerrier, Duensing, and others.

    We won 94 games that year with that rotation.

    Yeah, Anderson's 12+ seasons as pitching coach just reek of incompetance.

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