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Thread: According to LEN3- It appears the Twins are near the end of their patience w/ Hicks

  1. #81
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    This is the essence of it for me -- all this drama could have been kept in house and most of us would have saw exactly what the Twins saw anyway, that he's not ready for the MLB level yet. All the potshots and bad press just feels like piling on and totally unnecessary. Especially at this point now that he's going to be out of the picture.
    It does appear, at first glance, that much of the actual drama is being generated by third parties. This isn't Billy Martin and Dave Boswell throwing haymakers, after all.
    Mystery creates wonder, and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. - N. Armstrong

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    It does appear, at first glance, that much of the actual drama is being generated by third parties. This isn't Billy Martin and Dave Boswell throwing haymakers, after all.
    But then again, Aaron Hicks comes into this whole thing with a reputation for not taking a lot of swings, even at Gardengnomes.

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  4. #83
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    This is another example why this organization needs drastic changes from the Front Office, to the manager to the coaches.

    "Hicks stinks", right? His OBP is .338. Denard Span's OBP the last 3 seasons with the Twins was .331, .328 and .342. So:

    Either Hicks does not stink
    or the Manager stinks who was hitting leadoff a stinky player day after day (insert Violent Femmes sound effect.)

    Something's got to give... and tired of mentioning the ridiculous practices of throwing certain players under the bus and codling others. Mauer's OBP is .342. So hit him 3rd and keep hitting him third until the cows come home.

    They just got to go...
    Last edited by Thrylos; 06-12-2014 at 07:03 PM.
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  6. #84
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    It does appear, at first glance, that much of the actual drama is being generated by third parties. This isn't Billy Martin and Dave Boswell throwing haymakers, after all.
    You are referring to Twins Daily commenters, of course

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    Someone just suggested Iverson doesn't have drive, because he didn't practice hard enough? Really? Wow. Ya, he didn't try on the court at all during games......
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Someone just suggested Iverson doesn't have drive, because he didn't practice hard enough? Really? Wow. Ya, he didn't try on the court at all during games......

    "Practice"....and...."during games"....two completely different situations. There are countless examples of many guys who have the drive and natural ability for doing well in the latter...who often come to the conclusion that they don't need to put in as much extra effort into the former.

  9. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    This is another example why this organization needs drastic changes from the Front Office, to the manager to the coaches.

    "Hicks stinks", right? His OBP is .338. Denard Span's OBP the last 3 seasons with the Twins was .331, .328 and .342. So:

    Either Hicks does not stink
    or the Manager stinks who was hitting leadoff a stinky player day after day (insert Violent Femmes sound effect.)

    Something's got to give... and tired of mentioning the ridiculous practices of throwing certain players under the bus and codling others. Mauer's OBP is .342. So hit him 3rd and keep hitting him third until the cows come home.

    They just got to go...
    Hicks is good at one thing right now. NOT swinging the bat & hoping the pitcher walks him. That skill can only take you so far. At some point a ML player needs to be able to actually hit the ball.

    Yes, Hicks OBP is similar to Spans last 3 yrs but their SL% & OPS differ significantly. Hicks is .338/.597(2013) & .262/.602(2014) while Spans ranged from a low of .348/.679 to a high of .395/.738. And I don't think Hick's will improve after giving up SH in the middle of the season.

    People can make the case that the Twins screwed up the situation with Hicks (& I agree) but I can't believe anyone thinks Hicks shouldn't go to the minors ASAP.

    Regarding Mauer's .342 OBP. He's not doing so great right now but he does have a "little" bit of history indicating he will be ok. Hicks history indicates he needs more minor league playing time.

  10. #88
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfboy1 View Post
    Hicks is good at one thing right now. NOT swinging the bat & hoping the pitcher walks him. That skill can only take you so far. At some point a ML player needs to be able to actually hit the ball.

    Yes, Hicks OBP is similar to Spans last 3 yrs but their SL% & OPS differ significantly. Hicks is .338/.597(2013) & .262/.602(2014) while Spans ranged from a low of .348/.679 to a high of .395/.738. And I don't think Hick's will improve after giving up SH in the middle of the season.

    People can make the case that the Twins screwed up the situation with Hicks (& I agree) but I can't believe anyone thinks Hicks shouldn't go to the minors ASAP.

    Regarding Mauer's .342 OBP. He's not doing so great right now but he does have a "little" bit of history indicating he will be ok. Hicks history indicates he needs more minor league playing time.
    Guys don't throw four balls to him without throwing strikes intermixed. He works counts. He fouls off pitches. He works for his walks. Why would they give him free passes if he can't hit at all? Drew Butera had a similar approach when he was with the Twins. He'd work counts and get into 3-2 situations a lot. Then they'd throw it right down the middle and he'd make an out. Hicks is not doing that. Now that's not saying much. But it's a gross exaggeration to say that he's only good at taking pitches.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  11. #89
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Someone just suggested Iverson doesn't have drive, because he didn't practice hard enough? Really? Wow. Ya, he didn't try on the court at all during games......
    If memory serves... Larry Brown had a serious issue with Iverson at practice and he went public with those concerns. Iverson may not need practice but his teammates do and he can help his teammates by participating. But... I know very little about Iverson... I've never met him. So for all I know... Larry Brown may be a drama queen... I've never met him either.

    Hicks is probably a whole different animal... I have no idea... None of us do... But can't we assume that there are most likely varying levels of engagement across professional baseball and varying levels of expectation from management.

    With no proof... I honestly believe some players don't work their butts off. I believe they lay up often... They are way too human to believe otherwise.

    With that said... I have no idea where Hicks fits in... I only know... I'm not seeing what he's capable of thus far. And I don't need a trite sound bite or quote out of context to tell me what I'm seeing.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

  12. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Guys don't throw four balls to him without throwing strikes intermixed. He works counts. He fouls off pitches. He works for his walks. Why would they give him free passes if he can't hit at all? Drew Butera had a similar approach when he was with the Twins. He'd work counts and get into 3-2 situations a lot. Then they'd throw it right down the middle and he'd make an out. Hicks is not doing that. Now that's not saying much. But it's a gross exaggeration to say that he's only good at taking pitches.
    I understand. I doubt pitchers are very afraid of him & they certainly aren't trying to walk him but it happens a fair amount of the time. Yes, he fouls off a fair amount of pitches, works the count a lot & eventually he either walks or strikes out. He strikes out 27% of his PA & it seems like he takes strike 3 way more than he should. When he's not striking out he walks 17% of the time.

    Bottom line, he's batting under .200 for the 2nd straight season. Does anyone really think that's an acceptable BA even though his OBP is a "stellar".338? Plus, as mentioned, he's giving up switch hitting & that can't be easy against ML RH pitchers.

  13. #91
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    You are referring to Twins Daily commenters, of course
    The thought never would have occurred to me.
    Mystery creates wonder, and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. - N. Armstrong

  14. #92
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfboy1 View Post
    I understand. I doubt pitchers are very afraid of him & they certainly aren't trying to walk him but it happens a fair amount of the time. Yes, he fouls off a fair amount of pitches, works the count a lot & eventually he either walks or strikes out. He strikes out 27% of his PA & it seems like he takes strike 3 way more than he should. When he's not striking out he walks 17% of the time.

    Bottom line, he's batting under .200 for the 2nd straight season. Does anyone really think that's an acceptable BA even though his OBP is a "stellar".338? Plus, as mentioned, he's giving up switch hitting & that can't be easy against ML RH pitchers.
    I guess we could compare him to Ben Revere. Ben Revere has an OBP of .302, with 7 XBH in 228 PAs. Hicks has an OBP of .338 with 6 XBH in 156 PAs. Offensively, I'd rather have Hicks. Defensively? Revere has the better UZR/150 after a slow start. But I have a hard time believing anyone would be calling for sending him down because his batting average is .286 and he has the smile and the appearance of running really fast.

    FWIW, I think they should send Hicks down to get used to hitting right handed against right handed pitching. But his play alone doesn't deserve the kind of angst we're hearing.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #93
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Great conversation on Hicks, who has been a lightning rod for at least this season. Of all the comments in this thread, I probably agree with RB the most. Hicks hasn't hit the ball hard and hasn't demonstrated his supposedly ample toolkit. I disagree about the arm. Hicks has a fine arm, but showing it off by making unnecessary throws is ridiculous. On another point, Hicks has above average speed, but it isn't game-changing speed. Hicks hasn't hit well above AA, he has a .600 OPS in about 450 plate appearances, not sufficient for a major league regular and he is not a great fielder although he has enough speed and a fine arm, so that he could be very good. I have said that Hicks has about a year to establish himself. Nothing in his history tells me he can move to a corner and hit well enough to keep a job.

  16. #94
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    The rumbling about Hicks character is interesting. We see the team between the lines and in the dugout. We don't see the clubhouse. I suspect the rumbling has a lot to go with Aaron Hicks fitting in. I'm speculating here, I understand that.

    Players tend to befriend and associate with those that share the same language. It is obvious and apparent that the Hispanic players associate with each other and I presume that is the case with the clubhouse. Aaron Hicks is a young African American, he would naturally associate with......? The non-Hispanic position player closest in age to Hicks is Parmelee, I suppose. I would not be surprised if Hicks is somewhat off by himself and the manager and coaches consider him aloof. He's thrown them a couple curves (dropping switch hitting and reporting injuries perhaps after not seeking treatment). All of this gets swept under the rug if Hicks is hitting .270 with a .750 OPS, not so much when he's been over the Mendoza line for one day after the first week of the season. Two other young players with far fewer ABs have more extra base hits--Espinosa with 20 doubles and Danny Santana with seven XBHs in less than 100 plate appearances. So, to summarize, I think the Twins see a guy who hasn't bought in to the Twins Way, whose best friends aren't his teammates and who seems to go his own way. Some of this is undoubtedly the team's fault. Some of that is on Hicks IMHO.

  17. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    The rumbling about Hicks character is interesting. We see the team between the lines and in the dugout. We don't see the clubhouse. I suspect the rumbling has a lot to go with Aaron Hicks fitting in. I'm speculating here, I understand that.

    Players tend to befriend and associate with those that share the same language. It is obvious and apparent that the Hispanic players associate with each other and I presume that is the case with the clubhouse. Aaron Hicks is a young African American, he would naturally associate with......? The non-Hispanic position player closest in age to Hicks is Parmelee, I suppose. I would not be surprised if Hicks is somewhat off by himself and the manager and coaches consider him aloof. He's thrown them a couple curves (dropping switch hitting and reporting injuries perhaps after not seeking treatment). All of this gets swept under the rug if Hicks is hitting .270 with a .750 OPS, not so much when he's been over the Mendoza line for one day after the first week of the season. Two other young players with far fewer ABs have more extra base hits--Espinosa with 20 doubles and Danny Santana with seven XBHs in less than 100 plate appearances. So, to summarize, I think the Twins see a guy who hasn't bought in to the Twins Way, whose best friends aren't his teammates and who seems to go his own way. Some of this is undoubtedly the team's fault. Some of that is on Hicks IMHO.
    Maybe Hicks could invite "Espinoza" out on a golf date?

  18. #96
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    I disagree about the arm. Hicks has a fine arm, but showing it off by making unnecessary throws is ridiculous.
    String... I think we are on the same wavelength but I gotta ask... Why are you under the impression that I think he should make unnecessary throws?

    I'm saying I've heard he has a world class arm and I'm saying I've seen it once. 129 games played... I've watched over 100 of those games. How come I've only went "Wow... Look at that"... Once?

    Yankee Stadium... I don't remember the base runner... I just remember the ball rolling around the CF warning track and he made a throw to 3B on the fly... That only someone with a cannon could make.

    I just think... I'd see it again somewhere. He has 12 assists but pretty routine stuff because I remember the good ones. I think he clipped Cruz at 2nd once on a nice spin and throw.

    Ok... That's Two but that isn't a lot... If you have a hose and he clearly does.

    i'm not saying anything definitive about Hicks but knowing when to let it fly and when to hit the cut is part of the game and part of engagement. I want to be clear... I'm not saying that Hicks doesn't know or care because I don't know.

    I'm saying... I assume I'd see more examples of letting it fly with the arm he clearly has but... not unnecessary... You know... letting it fly.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 06-12-2014 at 11:29 PM.
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  19. #97
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    This is another example why this organization needs drastic changes from the Front Office, to the manager to the coaches.

    "Hicks stinks", right? His OBP is .338. Denard Span's OBP the last 3 seasons with the Twins was .331, .328 and .342. So:

    Either Hicks does not stink
    or the Manager stinks who was hitting leadoff a stinky player day after day (insert Violent Femmes sound effect.)

    Something's got to give... and tired of mentioning the ridiculous practices of throwing certain players under the bus and codling others. Mauer's OBP is .342. So hit him 3rd and keep hitting him third until the cows come home.

    They just got to go...
    So one statistic trumps the other one thousand and one statistics AND ten years' worth of Joe Mauer track record.

    Gotcha.

    We should DEFINITELY fire everyone from Terry Ryan to the grounds crew. That will win us multiple World Series per year, I'm pretty sure.

  20. #98
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    String... I think we are on the same wavelength but I gotta ask... Why are you under the impression that I think he should make unnecessary throws?

    I'm saying I've heard he has a world class arm and I'm saying I've seen it once. 129 games played... I've watched over 100 of those games. How come I've only went "Wow... Look at that"... Once?

    Yankee Stadium... I don't remember the base runner... I just remember the ball rolling around the CF warning track and he made a throw to 3B on the fly... That only someone with a cannon could make.

    I just think... I'd see it again somewhere. He has 12 assists but pretty routine stuff because I remember the good ones. I think he clipped Cruz at 2nd once on a nice spin and throw.

    Ok... That's Two but that isn't a lot... If you have a hose and he clearly does.

    i'm not saying anything definitive about Hicks but knowing when to let it fly and when to hit the cut is part of the game and part of engagement. I want to be clear... I'm not saying that Hicks doesn't know or care because I don't know.

    I'm saying... I assume I'd see more examples of letting it fly with the arm he clearly has but... not unnecessary... You know... letting it fly.
    He has an Arcia arm. When he was unknown, guys ran on it. If memory serves, he had double digit assists last year, in just three month and change. His assists are down this year, but his arm is well known and he's been mostly a part-time player for the last month.
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  21. #99
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    So one statistic trumps the other one thousand and one statistics AND ten years' worth of Joe Mauer track record.

    Gotcha.

    We should DEFINITELY fire everyone from Terry Ryan to the grounds crew. That will win us multiple World Series per year, I'm pretty sure.
    If you could only have one stat, OBP would be it. It correlates to team runs more than any other. And if his OBP is close to Mauer's, it means it's not bad. Not to say he doesn't have a lot of work to do. Just that the org should not give up on him. If this constitutes "blowing his chance," they are not patient enough.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  23. #100
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Hicks is capable of working counts and has a great eye......and it won't matter for squat if he continues to make abysmal contact.

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