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Thread: Scoggins lowers the boom on Twins/Hicks situation

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Did anyone say one word about this situation even remotely resembling a Mike Trout scenario promotion? And of course, the scenario presumes that Rosario is able to build on his 70-game stint in New Britain from last season (which was actually much better than you presume, particularly for a guy who was nearly 4 years too young for AA).


    It's fairly obvious that the Twins, by their own admission are in scramble mode, even adding Chris Hermann to the CF depth chart. They admit that Hicks would be in AAA if they had a viable option. They have no indication on when/if Fuld can return to action, and even then, he is now at the point where, as he apparently is "resuming baseball activities", he still would require a rehab stint. They have a rookie SS without CF experience starting the last 2 games. Buxton is missing in action, apparently nowhere close to even beginning baseball activities, he's at the point where soon the entire season is basically a write-off. Apparently, Chris Parmelee is the final emergency resort in the absolute worst-case scenario.

    My suggestion was based on Rosario showing baseball acuity in CF above a mere pulse in AA, that the Twins by starting him out in CF right off the bat today, they recognize the gaping hole in the organization at the upper levels, and are leaving all options open- in this case, that "before the season is over", maybe the Twins give Rosario a look during the September call-up, to help formulate their CF plans for April 1, 2015.
    Rosario was an average hitter in his half season at New Britain. I would be nore than amused at how you could spin it any other way. If he were to near major league ready after a short stint in the minors he would have to show he can do a lot more than he has at that level. I would really hope that he can do that. Putting a player of potential in a situation to most likely result in failure is not the best thing to do. See the mlb career of Aaron Hicks. Twins Fan From Afar can more accurately portay the needs of the Rock Cats, but I would think it would be easier to pick up what he needs to do defensively easier in the outfield than the timing at 2b.

  2. #82
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    There comes a point that going back to the minors does not help.
    Sure. Almost any downward move in the system generally loses its developmental value after a player has dominated the next lower level. That's pretty much a given.

    But Cola and Parms both OPS'ed over 1.000 in their initial stints in AAA. Hicks OPS'ed in the mid-.600's . Even given the position difference, that's not just comparing apples to oranges, that's comparing apples to hand grenades.

    And then there is the 'oh, by the way' factor of his learning to hit same side pitching for the first time since grade school.

    If you don't have a stronger case that simultaneously promoting Hicks to the level above the last one he enjoyed across-the-board success at and having him working on a new way of hitting will actually hurt his development, then it comes down to why else he should be here.

    And if that reason is to give the Twins the best chance to win games, my next questions are 'how many?' and 'to what end?'

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  4. #83
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    The thing that really baffles me is this defense of "let him figure it out in the majors!" completely flies in the face of what the acting GM and manager have said is best for him! Even the leadership directly working with him think it's the best thing.

    I'm not sure why this is anything other than universally accepted.

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  6. #84
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Wait, wait, know this one...

    90% off Daniel Child jerseys in the gift shop?

    10% markup on Ramon Oviedo jerseys after he got three scoreless outs despite issuing FIVE walks?

    Pitching or bullpen coach opening in Clearwater? Does Andy have a twitter account?
    Last edited by LaBombo; 05-29-2014 at 10:04 PM.

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  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Santana as a CF leaves me empty. This is the second "throw home" that has missed the plate and allowed a runner on third to score.

    The arguements about hitting in AAA ignore the obvious logic: if it's easier to hit "down there" then Hicks is going to be prepared to hit for the Twins--but if hitting in AAA truly is relevant preparation, then Hicks should play for the Twins and prove himself at the major league level. Watching Gardenhire run "open mike" CF auditions is exasperating--especially when the plan is to play Buxton in CF.
    Santana as a CF should leave everyone empty! Colabello in right. Escobar in left. It's not fair to Santana, to his teammates, or to the fans.

    Jokin, as Hicks pinch ran in the game today, it is fair to assume that nobody was "forced" to play another infielder in the outfield today, that it was manager's decision. Am I mistaken?

  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The thing that really baffles me is this defense of "let him figure it out in the majors!" completely flies in the face of what the acting GM and manager have said is best for him! Even the leadership directly working with him think it's the best thing.

    I'm not sure why this is anything other than universally accepted.
    At least you have gone on record saying who you think should play center in lieu of Hicks, and you said Parmelee.

  10. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Rosario was an average hitter in his half season at New Britain. I would be nore than amused at how you could spin it any other way. If he were to near major league ready after a short stint in the minors he would have to show he can do a lot more than he has at that level. I would really hope that he can do that. Putting a player of potential in a situation to most likely result in failure is not the best thing to do. See the mlb career of Aaron Hicks. Twins Fan From Afar can more accurately portay the needs of the Rock Cats, but I would think it would be easier to pick up what he needs to do defensively easier in the outfield than the timing at 2b.
    Your post is full of analytic flaws and largely missing the point of the bigger picture. Rosario has already accomplished much more at this level than you care to give him credit for. Where to start? And I promise to be spin-free. And do you actually read the posts before responding? You and I are on the same page, my basic thrust is to point out that, because out of overriding necessity and urgency, Rosario's potentially fastest path to the majors may very well be to forestall the 2nd base experiment and see if he can go back to his natural position and be a possible alternative in CF, possibly beginning as soon as April 1, 2015. This is about avoiding the more likely possibility of failure at 2nd and seeing if he can dust off the rust from his layoff to determine how close he might be to hacking it at the plate while holding down the CF spot for the next year or so, at the least.

    Meanwhile back to the facts. In scanning the 2013 Eastern League results, Rosario is the only player 21 years of age, unless you go well down the list of Eastern Leaguers, who mostly all are far below his averages. The league age average is 24.5 , BTW.

    "Rosario was an average hitter in New Britain." Well, no, unless you say that among players with, and more than, Rosario's 40th ranking place (among some 90 players w/ over 313+ PAs) with respect to OPS and wOBA are considered "average."

    How about the true 2013 EL "average hitter"?

    Eastern League 2013 average OPS .713
    Eddie Rosario 2013 AA average OPS .742

    And even that is an entirely inaccurate assessment of Rosario's hitting accomplishments, as he needs to be compared with his 2nd base peer group (tied for 5th place among 16 2nd basemen with 300+ PAs, and all 4 ahead of him are 1-3 years older).

    The Eastern League averages for 2nd Basemen in the EL (300+ PA): OPS .701 wOBA .322
    Rosario's averages from the EL in 2013 (repeated yet again): OPS .742 wOBA .355

    Obviously, these numbers would compare just as favorably to the CF peer group, as well, and Rosario would be expected to have the potential to better those numbers if he can dust off the rust.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-29-2014 at 10:41 PM.

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  12. #88
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    Rosario's age is pointless in a descusion of what kind of player he can be. Age only becomes an issue when figuring out the decline phase. That a player is younger than league aveerage means the player has some talent.
    So he can hit above average for a AA player playing 2B for 300+ AB. That means squat. Doess an OPS of .742 in AA say jump 2 levels he is way too talented for this league to you? That is what you advocate. Attack on analytic flaws? ________________________

  13. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Santana as a CF should leave everyone empty! Colabello in right. Escobar in left. It's not fair to Santana, to his teammates, or to the fans.

    Jokin, as Hicks pinch ran in the game today, it is fair to assume that nobody was "forced" to play another infielder in the outfield today, that it was manager's decision. Am I mistaken?
    That is an interesting question. I get the sense that the club is pretty exasperated with Hicks, especially when words like "drama" are now being used next to Hicks' name. Getting bombshell unilateral ultimatums from guys putting out less than fringe Major league performances will make managers unload a little frustration on a reporter.

    Regarding Santana, I would have to think that the Pitchers and their agents have expressed their displeasure with this OF circus. When the organization should be putting virtually all of its off-field focus on the upcoming draft, they have completely temporarily derailed Santana's challenge to the SS position, forstalling answers to the Twins most important unanswered question mark among postion players......and through a dilemma largely of their own making, they have themselves scrambling night and day just to keep the CF tourniquets secure.

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Doess an OPS of .742 in AA say jump 2 levels he is way too talented for this league to you? That is what you advocate. Attack on analytic flaws? ________________________
    Yes. And actually, he has demonstrated that he hit well above league average. Can't you just admit you were entirely wrong in your previous post on the details of your assessment?

    I'm not advocating anything. I'm merely noting what the Twins have done today with Rosario's reinstatement and that what he accomplished last year with his .742 OPS is simply the jumping off point for the Twins, to see if he can logically progress from there, in a truncated season of 2014, to a point where he can earn a look-see in September..... at a position at the major league level that is in complete chaos and crisis mode... and no ready answer going into 2015. Is it forcing the issue? Yes. But desperate times require desperate measure. This would be one option for possibly addressing their desperation.

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  17. #91
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Age only becomes an issue when figuring out the decline phase.
    You should really clue Baseball America (as well as every other living, breathing minor league analyst) into this, because apparently none of them are aware.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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  19. #92
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    Moderator note - this is a good discussion but there have been a few posts that border on disrespectful. Let's keep this polite and respectful.

  20. #93
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    You should really clue Baseball America (as well as every other living, breathing minor league analyst) into this, because apparently none of them are aware.
    As you are the one saying saying Baseball America and every other living breathing anaylist I shouldn't be wrong you have talked to or read something from every source. So, please feel free to elaborate how physical age acts as either an enhancer or detracts from talent a player has at the high minor leauge level. What factor in a player's development is age related?

  21. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Yes. And actually, he has demonstrated that he hit well above league average. Can't you just admit you were entirely wrong in your previous post on the details of your assessment?

    I'm not advocating anything. I'm merely noting what the Twins have done today with Rosario's reinstatement and that what he accomplished last year with his .742 OPS is simply the jumping off point for the Twins, to see if he can logically progress from there, in a truncated season of 2014, to a point where he can earn a look-see in September..... at a position at the major league level that is in complete chaos and crisis mode... and no ready answer going into 2015. Is it forcing the issue? Yes. But desperate times require desperate measure. This would be one option for possibly addressing their desperation.
    Does above average in the Eastern Leauge get you to the majors? In the New York times a few years ago there was something about the average length of a position player being close to six years. That is about 2 position players a year per team make it to the majors. If it is your bat that is getting you there, above average doesnt cut it.

  22. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    You should really clue Baseball America (as well as every other living, breathing minor league analyst) into this, because apparently none of them are aware.
    Sorry, Government computers runs a very early version of IE which TD doesn't like when I edit.So here goes a 2 post
    Somebody being younger than the average age of those competing at the same level is an indication of that player's talent when in the higher levels of minor league baseball. The player got to that level with talent. Age does not play a factor in what that player does.

    When a college senior is drafted in the late rounds it was because of his talent. He starts in the GCL league or rookie leauge because of talent not age. They get promoted through developing their talent. That in the lowest levels they are older than average player isn't an issue. Talent and upside are the key.

  23. #96
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    And the plot thickens in Florida.

    http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats...g_box&sid=milb

    CF depth might now be officially considered a Twins top priority, if not an urgency. Appearing in the lineup tonight for the Miracle, former OF, then-recent 2ndB, Eddie Rosario, comes off of suspension tonight, and in his first appearance, will be playing in CF.

    Is there any scenario if Rosario plays well enough in Ft Myers, and soon New Britain, that he gets a shot in CF with the Twins before the season is over? And even more importantly, assuming Buxton's ascension to the Twins is continued in the current holding pattern, is Rosario now in a position to challenge Hicks for the starting job in CF coming out of ST, 2015?
    This just shows how unfortunate the Twins' situation has been this season. Hicks, terrible. Fuld, injured. Rosario, suspended. Buxton, injured.

    Given the play out of the CF position, I believe there's a pretty good chance we would have seen Rosario already, had he not hit the ganja a little too hard in the offseason. A "position of strength" has been turned into a glaring weakness through a healthy dose of bad luck and some pretty dumb roster management (that, had Fuld not gotten injured, would have been marginal anyway).

    This is as close to a "worst case scenario" as I could have developed in the offseason.

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  25. #97
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    At least you have gone on record saying who you think should play center in lieu of Hicks, and you said Parmelee.
    And I clearly said it was a crappy option too. I just favor not harming a pivotal prospect's development over a few weeks of bad defense. (Hell, it's not like we aren't doing that already. Throwing Parmelee out there is barely any worse than Santana. At least one is actually an outfielder)

    It's funny, I keep being accused of giving up on Hicks. I'd argue forcing him to relearn something from grade school against professional pitchers is about as "giving up on him" as humanly possible.

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  27. #98
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    The punishment?/injury?/Wally Pipping? of Hicks continues tonight in the Big Apple:



    1. Danny Santana (S) CF
    2. Brian Dozier (R) 2B
    3. Joe Mauer (L) 1B
    4. Josh Willingham (R) LF
    5. Oswaldo Arcia (L) RF
    6. Trevor Plouffe (R) 3B
    7. Kurt Suzuki (R) C
    8. Eduardo Nunez (R) DH
    9. Eduardo Escobar (S) SS

  28. #99
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    Rosario had a 104 RC+ in AA last year, right around league average. He was awful in the AFL - 45 RC+. He's nowhere near ready to help the Twins offensively, nor has he settled in anywhere defensively. I just hope he gets back on track. He's overrated by some fans here.

  29. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    Rosario had a 104 RC+ in AA last year, right around league average. He was awful in the AFL - 45 RC+. He's nowhere near ready to help the Twins offensively, nor has he settled in anywhere defensively. I just hope he gets back on track. He's overrated by some fans here.
    He's a Top 60-Top100 prospect by various different neutral rating services. While I agree, he's definitely a ways off offensively as a big leaguer, and as a 2nd Basemen, but as he's been an OFer all his life and is extremely fast, he'd probably be perfectly acceptable (when compared to the alternatives) as a MLB CF....I really don't see the evidence that the fans are overrating him.

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