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Thread: Pirates Prospects: Worley Back on Track

  1. #81
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Worley was worse than terrible...he sucked. One article does not mean he is back...he still sucks and likely will not be back in the bigs. Liriano always had the stuff but dont tell me his faults were because of rick anderson.

    One more thing on worley...dude is a crybaby. He never took responsibility in minnesota even blaming the wind at one point. Sounds like he is the same guy saying he never got a chance...newsflash "vanimal," if you would have showed any signs of being even a AAAA guy we would have kept you. More like excuse-imal or 87downthepipeimal
    This. I don't care how he does. He was worse than horrible. His release had nothing to do with signing Pelfrey or retaining Correia. He was DFAd and no one claimed him. He cleared waivers and was assigned to Rochester. He couldn't make the Rochester rotation or its bullpen. Only then was he released. He had every opportunity to make it here. He just sucked. Good Riddance Geranimal.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    We absolutely gave up on Neshek and he has been lights out since he left.
    Not exactly. He was pretty awful for the Padres for one season and then he moved to Oakland and returned to being lights out.

    Same result, missing an important component in the timeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Not exactly. He was pretty awful for the Padres for one season and then he moved to Oakland and returned to being lights out.

    Same result, missing an important component in the timeline.
    You mean the 24 IP and 4.01 ERA with the Padres is both meaningful and awful? His last two years here his ERA was 4.73 and 5.00.

  4. #84
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    You mean the 24 IP and 4.01 ERA with the Padres is both meaningful and awful?
    He pitched 24.2 bad innings for the Padres, which you're discounting.

    The following season he pitched 19.2 good innings for the A's, which you're counting.

    In his second season with the A's, he posted a 112 ERA+ in 40.1 innings. Hardly earth-shattering.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    He pitched 24.2 bad innings for the Padres, which you're discounting.

    The following season he pitched 19.2 good innings for the A's, which you're counting.

    In his second season with the A's, he posted a 112 ERA+ in 40.1 innings. Hardly earth-shattering.
    His ERA in every one of the three years since leaving was lower than his ERA in the last two years here. He was cited as a guy who had success here and struggled elsewhere, which is simply not the case. He was lights out here for a few years before getting hurt and we gave up on him.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    His last two years here his ERA was 4.73 and 5.00.
    He was injured and pitched a combined 22 innings between two seasons.

    I'm not the one who brought up Neshek. You're the one who said he was lights out, yet he has pitched under 100 innings since leaving the team in 2010.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    We absolutely gave up on Neshek and he has been lights out since he left. Slowey's ERA was better with the Marlins, ERA+ slightly better with Twins.
    And those are pretty good reasons that rate stats can give false information when using them out of context. Slowey was a bad pitcher for us and a worse one in Miami - he's managed .3 WAR and been moved to the pen. Frankly, that the Twins got any value out of him and Blackburn should be considered a positive on them, in my opinion.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    His ERA in every one of the three years since leaving was lower than his ERA in the last two years here.
    Sure. The years he was injured and pitched 13.1 and 9.0 innings, respectively.

    Again, you're using selective stats to prove a point you want to make instead of using stats to form an opinion.

    Personally, I'm neutral on Neshek and said so earlier in the thread. I hated to see him go but I'm certainly not mourning his loss now, as he bounced around and had large periods of ineffective play after leaving (hence an average of under 25 IP per year since he left the Twins).

    He has barely pitched 100 innings in the past six years combined.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    He was injured and pitched a combined 22 innings between two seasons.
    Actually, it was 22 innings over three seasons - he missed all of 09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Actually, it was 22 innings over three seasons - he missed all of 09.
    He was brought up by SABR as a guy who had better numbers with us. The numbers don't prove that. The fact is we thought he was done after his injury in 2009 and we cut him.

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    Here's a fun stat:

    In Neshek's first two seasons with the Twins, he pitched 107.1 innings combined.

    In the seven seasons since that point, he has pitched 124.1 innings combined.

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    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    One thing that comes to mind in a lot of these discussions is that extenuating circumstances regarding people's departure is often left out. No one doubted Ortiz's ability to hit. His problem was that he was expensive and often injured. He was DFAd, no one claimed him, and signed a minor league deal with the RedSox. Neshek and Balfour were similar candidates as well. They were quite good prior to their injuries. In all of these cases, it's hard to credit or blame anyone. Baseball matters, not talent or coaching, got in the way of these guys staying in MN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    He was brought up by SABR as a guy who had better numbers with us. The numbers don't prove that. The fact is we thought he was done after his injury in 2009 and we cut him.
    Actually, they cut him in 2010 after his fastball had dropped from 90.7 in his rookie season to 85.6 after the injury.

    He didn't get back up to 89 mph until 2012 with the Athletics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    And those are pretty good reasons that rate stats can give false information when using them out of context. Slowey was a bad pitcher for us and a worse one in Miami - he's managed .3 WAR and been moved to the pen. Frankly, that the Twins got any value out of him and Blackburn should be considered a positive on them, in my opinion.
    This is simply not true. From 2008-10 when he was fully healthy, he was a perfectly serviceable back-end starter for the Twins- 4.02 FIP with 6.9 fWAR- which ranked 3rd among Twins pitchers in that time frame. And then the injuries made him a bad pitcher in 2011 and 2012.

    As far as Miami goes, Slowey was moved to the pen last season because the Marlins were chock full of good young pitching prospects that are simply better options than Slowey- this year their team SP FIP ranks 5th in the NL @ 3.56, while they're 4th in fWAR at 3.0. As far as Slowey goes w/ Miami, he had a 3.81 FIP in 2013 with a .8 fWAR and .6 bWAR, and this year he has a 3.63 FIP with a .1 fWAR. Slowey's numbers in 2013 would have had him right around the Twins SP with the best numbers, Samuel Deduno, and definitely a bit better than the Twins 2013 "Ace", Kevin Correia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    As far as Slowey goes w/ Miami, he had a 3.81 FIP in 2013 with a .8 fWAR and .6 bWAR, and this year he has a 3.63 FIP with a .1 fWAR. Slowey's numbers in 2013 would have had him right around the Twins SP with the best numbers, Samuel Deduno, and definitely a bit better than the Twins 2013 "Ace", Kevin Correia.
    A testament to just how awful the rotation was last season. Ugh.

  18. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Actually, they cut him in 2010 after his fastball had dropped from 90.7 in his rookie season to 85.6 after the injury.

    He didn't get back up to 89 mph until 2012 with the Athletics.
    The word actually implies you are disagreeing with me. The surgery was in November of 2008 and he missed all of 2009, then we cut him in 2010 after we saw his low velocity and concluded the injury made him something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    The word actually implies you are disagreeing with me. The surgery was in November of 2008 and he missed all of 2009, then we cut him in 2010 after we saw his low velocity and concluded the injury made him something else.
    Nope, just misread your post. My mistake. I read it as "they cut him in 2009", which you didn't say.

  20. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    One thing that comes to mind in a lot of these discussions is that extenuating circumstances regarding people's departure is often left out.

    No one doubted Ortiz's ability to hit.

    His problem was that he was expensive and often injured. He was DFAd, no one claimed him, and signed a minor league deal with the RedSox.
    Neshek and Balfour were similar candidates as well. They were quite good prior to their injuries. In all of these cases, it's hard to credit or blame anyone. Baseball matters, not talent or coaching, got in the way of these guys staying in MN.
    Ortiz signed a major league contract with the Red Sox, and Pedro Martinez highly recommended him to Theo Epstein.

    Ryan’s decision was to release Ortiz rather than let him go before a salary arbitration hearing. At the behest of no less an authority than Pedro Martinez, Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein signed Ortiz on Jan. 22, 2003.Pedro knew Ortiz from their shared roots in the Dominican. But there was another factor – in an Aug. 16, 2002, game at Minnesota, Ortiz jacked one of his patented rising line drives to right field for a home run off Martinez, the Red Sox super-ace who was on his way to a 20-4 season.
    Pedro did not forget that one.
    http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index...by_minnes.html

    It's been rehashed many times, but even Terry Ryan admits it was the worst move he ever made. And based on the evidence of Big Papi's time here, there obviously was great doubt about "(his) ability to hit." Even though his defense was a liability that discouraged TK from playing him- (and he did have Mientkiewiscz at 1st- kind-of ironic that DougieFresh also ended up with the Red Sox 1.5 years later.) He also didn't see fit to give him DH time, in favor of Cordova, Coomer, Koskie, and of course, Matt LeCroy, not real discernment of what they actually had in Ortiz.

    Believe it or not, there was a time when David Ortiz couldn’t find a spot in the starting lineup. No room for him at first base. No room for him as a designated hitter...Now internationally known as the face and heart of the world champion Boston Red Sox
    .
    And all because TR didn't want to go to arbitration to potentially give Ortiz a raise from $950,000 to $1.25M. It's arguable that it cost the Twins at least 3 decent shots at AL Pennants.

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  22. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    A testament to just how awful the rotation was last season. Ugh.
    Yup. It was almost criminal that the new normal acceptable of Twins FO expectations for "Ace" level in 2013 was below League Average. They finally woke up this year, but 2 years after it was pretty obvious to everyone else- running Slowey out, no matter his level of priggishness at the time, was unwise and unnecessary.

  23. #100
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Ortiz signed a major league contract with the Red Sox, and Pedro Martinez highly recommended him to Theo Epstein.

    http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index...by_minnes.html

    It's been rehashed many times, but even Terry Ryan admits it was the worst move he ever made. And based on the evidence of Big Papi's time here, there obviously was great doubt about "(his) ability to hit." Even though his defense was a liability that discouraged TK from playing him- (and he did have Mientkiewiscz at 1st- kind-of ironic that DougieFresh also ended up with the Red Sox 1.5 years later.) He also didn't see fit to give him DH time, in favor of Cordova, Coomer, Koskie, and of course, Matt LeCroy, not real discernment of what they actually had in Ortiz.



    And all because TR didn't want to go to arbitration to potentially give Ortiz a raise from $950,000 to $1.25M. It's arguable that it cost the Twins at least 3 decent shots at AL Pennants.
    I could be wrong on the major league contract vs. minor league contract thing, but TR attempted and failed to trade Ortiz for a bag of balls at the winter meetings that year, and no one claimed him when he went on waivers... Everyone else thought he was a bad investment to take to arbitration too, which is why he cleared waivers.

    It was a mistake, yes... but my point is that it tends to be a bit revisionist when no one recognizes that many of these mistakes had extenuating baseball circumstances that forced the decisions, not "player X had bad coaching and flourished under a different coach" or the converse.

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