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Thread: Moves that are warranted

  1. #61
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Stupid comment of the day, getting it out of the way early, is it worth trying Dozier back at SS for a week or two? Nunez would likely be acceptable at 2B at least more so than SS and Dozier is now settled in at "the major league level" and maybe could handle SS this time. If it works and with Rosario maybe ready by late in the year the middle would look kind of good.
    It's my opinion that it's a mistake to even consider moving Dozier from second until you have someone ready to replace him. Right now, you're just shuffling deck chairs without any potential for actual improvement while risking messing with the head of your best player.

  2. #62
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is about fringe hitters like Florimon is that when they collapse, they often don't drop to a .550 OPS; they have a tendency to utterly and completely collapse. Bill James wrote a fantastic article about aging and how fringe players often drop out of baseball entirely in their late 20s because they're fringe players who can't compensate for loss of skill or league adjustment. There's a good chance Pedro Florimon falls into that category of player.

    If you asked me "What's more likely: Florimon OPSing at .400 or .650 in May?", there's a good chance I would have replied ".400". The writing was on the wall that this guy had a good chance of imploding violently and spectacularly at any moment. He is old-ish. For a speed guy he misses the ball far too often, negating his ability to leg out a hit. He puts the ball in the air too often. He has no discipline. He relied on a decent early 2013 before fading pretty badly in the second half, indicating that he's not adjusting to opposing pitchers. Too much of his OPS is powered by homers, a fickle thing to rely on from a marginal power guy playing in Target Field.

    Pedro Florimon might be able to turn it around. There's always a chance of that happening. My point all along is that the chance of that happening and his ceiling prevent any rational team from wasting the time to find out.
    If Florimon would simply decide that he's not a power hitter and start going with the pitch instead of grounding out weakly trying to pull something on the outside... Or chasing high fastballs out of the zone.

    You'd see that surprising change and see it quickly.

    I assume that hitting coaches have tried and it ain't sticking. He's 27... The Twins are trying to hand him a job and he ain't listening. It's on Pedro and when the Twins move on... It'll still be on Pedro.

  3. #63
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    So what percentage of the requirements being raised here might Escobar satisfy, right now?
    Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay,
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It's my opinion that it's a mistake to even consider moving Dozier from second until you have someone ready to replace him. Right now, you're just shuffling deck chairs without any potential for actual improvement while risking messing with the head of your best player.
    I disagree with Brock. If Dozier is willing, I'd have him work out for a couple of months at SS in practice, then move him. While you are creating a hole this year, I think there are 2-3 2B prospects that could be up next year or the year after. I think there are no SS that meet that (though, if Santana is going to be up, it would be nice to actually test that theory....that's what a team committed to rebuilding would do). If Dozier proves not capable at SS after a month or two, move him back. But waiting for the offseason? Then you really don't know if he's a SS or not, and how do you plan for SS or 2B?
    Lighten up Francis....

  5. #65
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    So what percentage of the requirements being raised here might Escobar satisfy, right now?
    Outside of "small chance for improvement", I don't think Escobar is much of a step up from Florimon.

    I hope I'm wrong, I just don't expect much from the guy but he's been playing quite well so far.

    My guess is that the Twins will enter this offseason with the same questions about shortstop that they (should have) had last offseason.

  6. #66
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I disagree with Brock. If Dozier is willing, I'd have him work out for a couple of months at SS in practice, then move him. While you are creating a hole this year, I think there are 2-3 2B prospects that could be up next year or the year after. I think there are no SS that meet that (though, if Santana is going to be up, it would be nice to actually test that theory....that's what a team committed to rebuilding would do). If Dozier proves not capable at SS after a month or two, move him back. But waiting for the offseason? Then you really don't know if he's a SS or not, and how do you plan for SS or 2B?
    I'm not necessarily against approaching Dozier about the move this season, I just don't see a reason to do it right now. He could move back to short on September 1st and that would give you enough time to know whether he can hack it or not. The guy spent most of his career at the position.

    And in September, the Twins will have a better idea of what to expect from Rosario.

  7. #67
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    My glass half-full take: it won't be long before players start coming off the DL, and it's almost impossible (I hope) that PFlo and Herrmann aren't casualties in one of those moves. I have a vision of a team in which most players getting significant playing time can sport an OPS+ over 100. Maybe that's unrealistic, but the fact of the matter is that among players with significant playing time last year, only the M&M boys plus Dozier and Arcia (barely) could meet that mark.

    This year, pretty much everyone is performing at that clip, or close enough to be acceptable (Fuld is defense-first backup CF, Hicks is Hicks). The team's cumulative OPS+ is 102. Last year it was 92. Get rid of PFlo and Herrmann, insert Willy and Arcia, see Mauer return to career norm, and watch the team's OPS+ climb even more.

    Addition through subtraction...just like in the rotation. Get rid of Pelfrey, Hughes/Nolasco/Correia return to career norms, see the ERA+ climb.

    I still think that this team can play .500 ball.

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  9. #68
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    Good clarification. That would be ok with me....

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    If Florimon would simply decide that he's not a power hitter and start going with the pitch instead of grounding out weakly trying to pull something on the outside... Or chasing high fastballs out of the zone. It'sYou'd see that surprising change and see it quickly. I assume that hitting coaches have tried and it ain't sticking. He's 27... The Twins are trying to hand him a job and he ain't listening. It's on Pedro and when the Twins move on... It'll still be on Pedro.
    I could be wrong, but I dont think it's as simple as Florimon deciding to go with the pitch. I think it's even simpler...Florimon doesn't have the talent to consistently hit major league pitching. That's a condition he shares with 99.99 percent of the world's population, and no amount of practice or adjustment or coaching is going to fix it.
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  12. #70
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Outside of "small chance for improvement", I don't think Escobar is much of a step up from Florimon.

    I hope I'm wrong, I just don't expect much from the guy but he's been playing quite well so far.

    My guess is that the Twins will enter this offseason with the same questions about shortstop that they (should have) had last offseason.
    With Florimon tanking and Nunez hurt/bad at shortstop, the Twins need to give Escobar an extended look. I'm disappointed they haven't had him play more than he has.

    None of this is to say that Escobar is the answer to the question.

  13. #71
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    With Florimon tanking and Nunez hurt/bad at shortstop, the Twins need to give Escobar an extended look. I'm disappointed they haven't had him play more than he has.

    None of this is to say that Escobar is the answer to the question.
    Agreed. After the Twins refused to address shortstop in the offseason, I thought they should give Escobar the job.

  14. #72
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    With Florimon tanking and Nunez hurt/bad at shortstop, the Twins need to give Escobar an extended look. I'm disappointed they haven't had him play more than he has.

    None of this is to say that Escobar is the answer to the question.
    Nope, and we won't know unless he gets a month or two of extended playing time. And not at 3rd. Nunez can be the utility infielder.
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  15. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    Nope, and we won't know unless he gets a month or two of extended playing time. And not at 3rd. Nunez can be the utility infielder.
    I'm hoping that the plan was to send Florimon down, stick Escobar at short and use Nunez as the backup infielder, and that plan was derailed by Nunez's injury.

    Even so, it still seems to me like Florimon is playing too much. If they don't want him playing any other positions than short, they can still figure out something if there's an emergency and Florimon is the only infielder on the bench.

  16. #74
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I disagree with Brock. If Dozier is willing, I'd have him work out for a couple of months at SS in practice, then move him. While you are creating a hole this year, I think there are 2-3 2B prospects that could be up next year or the year after. I think there are no SS that meet that (though, if Santana is going to be up, it would be nice to actually test that theory....that's what a team committed to rebuilding would do). If Dozier proves not capable at SS after a month or two, move him back. But waiting for the offseason? Then you really don't know if he's a SS or not, and how do you plan for SS or 2B?
    I think Dozier is a better athlete than Hardy so he should be able to make that switch back especially if Rosario shows he can play.
    So if he proves he can play Hardy type SS we can quick trade him for some washed up relief guys. (Sorry that wasn't called for but I couldn't help myself).
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  18. #75
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I could be wrong, but I dont think it's as simple as Florimon deciding to go with the pitch. I think it's even simpler...Florimon doesn't have the talent to consistently hit major league pitching. That's a condition he shares with 99.99 percent of the world's population, and no amount of practice or adjustment or coaching is going to fix it.
    You are Absolutely Right... You Could Be Wrong!!!

    Florimon may be that guy... I won't say he is or isn't... Hitting .220 in the Majors does require some ability to hit a major league fastball. Florimon makes contact with the baseball 3 times out of 4.

    If we put Ashbury up at the plate... For example... He might hit like that 99.9 percent.

    I believe that if you can get around on a 100 MPH fastball and Florimon has... And if you can reach the seats... you can also reach every single corner of the ball park... The whole ball park is now your oyster and if you are not getting it done... It's in your approach. If he continues to try to hit what the pitchers want him to hit... He might as well be planning for his soon to be life out of baseball. And if he hasn't learned it by now... He just might not learn it. He may be too stubborn to change.

    Yogi was right... Baseball is 90 percent mental and the other half is physical.

  19. #76
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Eventually, Florimon, Herrmann, Santana, and Darnell (13th pitcher) need to go down. Nuñez, Willingham, Arcia and Parmelee (?) should replace them. I realize this is adding three corner OF types and if a guy who can play center becomes available, it would make some sense to add him instead of one of the outfielders.

  20. #77
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Eventually, Florimon, Herrmann, Santana, and Darnell (13th pitcher) need to go down. Nuñez, Willingham, Arcia and Parmelee (?) should replace them. I realize this is adding three corner OF types and if a guy who can play center becomes available, it would make some sense to add him instead of one of the outfielders.
    BTW, what's the code for the n with the tilda thingy on top?
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  21. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I'm sure there will be another AAAA CF hit waivers again soon.

    Of course the way things are going, the Twins would likely put themselves in the position that they'd have to DFA Fuld to get him.
    That's pretty funny. It'd be hilarious except that it's probably the truth.

    I really enjoy watching Florimon play defense but he is so messed up at the plate they should send him down & hope he can improve enough to warrant his return. I think a combo of Escobar & Nunez is probably the best option for now.

  22. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfboy1 View Post
    That's pretty funny. It'd be hilarious except that it's probably the truth.

    I really enjoy watching Florimon play defense but he is so messed up at the plate they should send him down & hope he can improve enough to warrant his return. I think a combo of Escobar & Nunez is probably the best option for now.
    Of all the people they had to DFA to make room for Fuld, why did it have to be the only healthy center fielder above Low A ball?
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  23. #80
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Yogi was right... Baseball is 90 percent mental and the other half is physical.
    And 99.9% of us can't do neither one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    So if he proves he can play Hardy type SS we can quick trade him for some washed up relief guys. (Sorry that wasn't called for but I couldn't help myself).
    Somebody oughta start up a brand new thread on this sadly neglected trade.

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