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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #161
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.
    If their failure to address either shortstop or centerfield is because of Jason Bartlett, words escape how I feel about that.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Not sure where injury plays in here. Buxton was not a solution for at least the first half of this year, if not the whole year.
    I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.
    I agree, I was trying to throw the people arguing there was a AA CF option a bone.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #164
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.
    I felt the same way until the Twins started jettisoning pitchers and players with reckless abandon. Near the end of March, it seemed as if they may have had a change of heart about aggressively pushing the kids onto the roster.

  5. #165
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    If their failure to address either shortstop or centerfield is because of Jason Bartlett, words escape how I feel about that.
    Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  7. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And that's fine. You would have preferred the Twins sign other players... But that doesn't imply incompetence or mismanagement on their part.

    What we do know is that Presley was an adequate backup or stop-gap CF measure. The Twins had him under contract.

    What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.
    What? 2 seasons now. Still no competent leadoff man, all the way down to AA. Still no quality OF depth. Going into 2014 with an Epically Proportioned Failed 2013 CF (who refused management's wishes to go to winter ball) and a 34-year-old, out of baseball for the past 2 years, who had never played the position was the back-up (and not to forget, "Team Chemist"- guess our depth is deficient at that spot now, too). That qualifies in my book as both incompetence and mismanagement.

  8. #167
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    If it is not mismanagement to only have 2 OF on the 25 man roster, I don't know what is.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  10. #168
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Also wanted to say this has been a very entertaining and enlightening thread to read, with many though get provoking and well stated positions on all sides of the issue.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  12. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I agree, I was trying to throw the people arguing there was a AA CF option a bone.....
    Poor quoting on my part. I was agreeing with your post, confused by the people you were responding to.

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  14. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    What? 2 seasons now. Still no competent leadoff man, all the way down to AA. Still no quality OF depth. Going into 2014 with an Epically Proportioned Failed 2013 CF (who refused management's wishes to go to winter ball) and a 34-year-old, out of baseball for the past 2 years, who had never played the position was the back-up (and not to forget, "Team Chemist"- guess our depth is deficient at that spot now, too). That qualifies in my book as both incompetence and mismanagement.
    And that's where we differ in opinion, I guess. I don't care about a "leadoff man". Put a high OBP guy in the leadoff spot and be done with it. I'm not a big believer in needing speed at the top of a lineup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.
    It's possible, it's just so mind-blowingly stupid that I can't believe anyone would actually do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And that's where we differ in opinion, I guess. I don't care about a "leadoff man". Put a high OBP guy in the leadoff spot and be done with it. I'm not a big believer in needing speed at the top of a lineup.
    If only we had just one of those besides Joe Mauer. And whither all the arguments that Mauer gets no respect because of his lackluster run production?- it's directly related to both low OBP and lack of speed guys at both the bottom of the order and the top of the order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.
    What else is there exactly? I'm honestly perplexed what kind of thing would've led to that decision that can't be traced back to a management decision. A few examples would help this notion you keep espousing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available.
    The Twins also had Presley when they were pursuing Rajai Davis earlier in the offseason.

    I guess they could have had them ranked 1) Davis, 2) Presley, 3) Bonifacio etc., but they just as well could have thought less of Presley than their roster construction suggested the whole time. Wouldn't be the first time.

  19. #175
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    If only we had just one of those besides Joe Mauer. And whither all the arguments that Mauer gets no respect because of his lackluster run production?- it's directly related to both low OBP and lack of speed guys at both the bottom of the order and the top of the order.
    As it turns out, there are actually several decent OBP guys on the team right now. Dozier is doing just fine in the leadoff position.

    And I couldn't care less about Joe Mauer's "run production". You know that, jokin.

  20. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    The Twins also had Presley when they were pursuing Rajai Davis earlier in the offseason.

    I guess they could have had them ranked 1) Davis, 2) Presley, 3) Bonifacio etc., but they just as well could have thought less of Presley than their roster construction suggested the whole time. Wouldn't be the first time.
    And if that's the case, they should have acquired somebody else. It doesn't make sense to hold onto a guy for 2+ months as your backup CF option and then jettison him, knowing there isn't a capable replacement.

    That is gross mismanagement. If that's truly what happened, then the front office doesn't really have a leg to stand on... But we don't know that's what happened.

  21. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    What else is there exactly? I'm honestly perplexed what kind of thing would've led to that decision that can't be traced back to a management decision. A few examples would help this notion you keep espousing.
    It matters which management decision we are critiquing. I'd tend to criticize the acquisition of Presley as opposed to his release. I'd also critique the Twins evaluation of both Bartlett's ability and commitment to play baseball. They had Mastro, Hicks, and Buxton (seemingly*) in the fold. They've lost Mastro, and acquired Fuld and Wilson. While guys like Bonafacio would have been an upgrade to the depth, such depth would be a boon at every up the middle position.

    There's not a lot of quality depth at up middle positions, period. The Twins should have anticipated these problems better, I agree, but I don't no that there were quick and easy means of amending the lack of depth either.

    * My guess is that they minimized the injury to Buxton in their minds, and viewed him as closer to major league ready than they've been willing to lead on. So there was little need to further address the position.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 05-02-2014 at 04:52 PM.

  22. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    As it turns out, there are actually several decent OBP guys on the team right now. Dozier is doing just fine in the leadoff position.

    And I couldn't care less about Joe Mauer's "run production". You know that, jokin.
    The Mauer thing was a throwaway for the unwashed masses. And you and I are both now on the record for noting that vast regression is already underway teamwide- it's fair to predict that most of the current high OBP guys will be at or below their career norms by June 1 (hence the perfect time in GardyWorld to reduce the roster to 11 position players, I guess, but that's a corollary topic). This includes Dozier, who as much as I am on his bandwagon, is likely to regress closer to his .304 career OBP, than his current .357 OBP. You certainly have to admit that Dozier is a less than ideal top-of-the-order guy, whether you buy into traditional leadoff expectations or not.

  23. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.
    I'm right with ya... As long as I stare at this puzzle... And why and how and who... It keeps leading back to Bartlett making the team.

    It's a 25th man spot and that 25th spot is low priority but the priority gets much larger when the 18th and 19th spots are 25th man like.

    I really don't want to hang anyone for this... But... My curiosity is killing me... Who was the Bartlett Guy with the clout to push this through.

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  25. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.
    I think Bartlett prevented them from further addressing the depth of either position; i.e. they didn't acquire more candidates for the 25th man. I find it more likely that the Twins were rosy-eyed in-love with their prospects at both positions and never were in the market for anything other than depth at either position. It's fair to fault them for that; but Bartlett wasn't the reason they didn't address CF or SS, Buxton/Hicks/Polanco/Santana/Escobar/Florimon were.

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