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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #141
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    My point is that sometimes, you need to just rely on prospects and say "you're our guy this season" and hope it works out.
    If said prospect flamed out badly the previous year and you aren't blocking anyone in AAA - there is zero excuse not to have a better Plan B. Plan B, for all I care, could have been your fourth outfielder on the 25 man who could at least provide some quality.

    The problem is that you tried to protect management by saying "a few" things went wrong when, in reality, only one thing went wrong. And then they had the good fortune to have Fuld dropped in their lap. Had Fuld not been waived this position, right now, would be in worse shape than Florimon and shortstop. It may still reach those levels if Fuld does what got him waived in the first place.

    I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to dismiss an obvious lack of planning. Which, to another poster's point...what meaningful distinction is there in misappraisal vs. mismanagement? Appraisal of talent is part of management's job. It's a distinction with no difference other than sounding better for the front office. Whether the gaffe was in planning on Pressley being Plan B or doing the same Plan B as last year doesn't change that there is a ton of very obvious fault to go around on this one.

    Good general managing involves appraising your roster for weaknesses. Depth at CF was apparently on that radar at one point, stopped, then became a bunch of musical chairs, and now rests in the hands of a young player who is showing nothing to indicate he's ready and a recently waived pair of journeyman. Not. Good. Management. And all that happened was one thing went wrong that has already happened once and had very good odds of happening again.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 05-02-2014 at 03:22 PM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Why did we go after Rajai Davis then? I think Presley was a real Hicks alternative about as much as Pedro Hernandez was a Liriano replacement.

    This team gambled on rushing Hicks one year, and then very quickly and quietly assented to repeat it again. Reminds me a little of the 2013 rotation plan -- it's like they knew it was an issue, both in terms of current performance and player development, but didn't show a whole lot of urgency to address it in the offseason either.
    "Doubling Down" is I believe what it's called. They did this on Hicks, they did this on Florimon, and they did this on Pelfrey (and although I was opposed to signing Pelfrey, I admit I accepted the Twins rationale for signing him once they struck out on Garza).

  3. #143
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The problem is that you tried to protect management by saying "a few" things went wrong when, in reality, only one thing went wrong. And then they had the good fortune to have Fuld dropped in their lap. Had Fuld not been waived this position, right now, would be in worse shape than Florimon and shortstop.
    I'm not protecting anyone. I've been a LOUD opponent of Florimon being anywhere near an MLB roster for almost a year now... Louder than anyone else on this forum, I'd wager.

    More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.

    And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

    No, I didn't skip a digit there. His OPS+ is 5.

    Finding guys like Sam Fuld just isn't that hard. This thread has tossed around a half dozen names of his calibre, if not better. It's no surprise the Twins were able to find him and play musical chairs with the fourth outfielder position.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    While there were varying opinions on where Hicks should have started the year, there was fairly widespread belief that opening the season with Jason Bartlett as his only backup on the 25 man (and Mastro as the only other backup above A ball, for that matter) was a mistake.
    Actually, it was slightly worse -- Bartlett was the only CF backup on the 40-man roster too (Mastro had to be added when he was recalled in early April, only to be waived just over a week later to get Fuld as we dithered about Bartlett's retirement).

  5. #145
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.
    Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

    It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.

  6. #146
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    Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp So you have Hicks, a former top 100 prospect as of just last season. 4+ months behind him, you have the best prospect in baseball.

    Who is going to sign with the Twins at that point? Nobody better than a Presley/Fuld-type of player.
    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Bonifacio was available as a waiver claim.

    Also, Grady Sizemore signed with a team that had a top 30 prospect with MLB experience ahead of him in CF (Jackie Bradley), and indeed did not beat him for the starting job.

    And I dispute the notion that an absolute best-case scenario July promotion for a 20 year old A-ball prospect is taken into any serious consideration by free agents entertaining one-year contract offers.
    Thanks for blowing up the standard line about Hicks' status as a hindrance to upgrading the position. Brock, you're just too forgiving of the Twns on this point. Grady Sizemore has been quoted as saying the Twins never even contacted him. Bonifacio had no say in the matter on getting claimed and/or traded for. And the Twins aren't exactly known for rushing 20-year olds, no matter how good they project to be. It seems pretty clear that once they got past striking out on Davis, that they had promised Bartlett a spot and didn't even consider any other option that happened along, they even cut Jermaine Mitchell outright, to clear the depth decks even more. "Baffling", indeed.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-02-2014 at 03:51 PM.

  7. #147
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

    It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.
    I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.

  8. #148
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    IAnd, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.
    And you missed an important caveat. Had Fuld not fallen into their laps at an ideal time...we'd be seeing the like of Chris Hermann or Kenny Wilson in CF right now. So while Hermann may have a better OPS....I curl into the fetal position thinking of him manning the position. Wilson may actually give that OPS+ a run for it's money from what I can see.

    So to keep score - the Twins had one thing go wrong and had another thing not gone very right....we could've seen a horrific CF situation.

  9. #149
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.
    They targeted him, in a trade, and kept him on the roster well into March. Sorry, but if he failed so spectacularly to be dumped and leave you with nothing but Bartlett for CF....the mistake STILL rests on management.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.
    I agree, but it is/was close. While Hicks is certainly younger and hopefully has a better future, he's darn near an equivalent replacement level performer right now, and the depth behind him was worse. The combo of Hicks+Bartlett+Mastro could have definitely rivaled Florimon+Escobar+Santana (+Nunez/Beresford).

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

    It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.
    Since the Twins dealt for Presley last season, you would think that they had done due diligence on Presley's background throughout the 2013 season. This rationale on Presley's suddenly discovered alleged lack of character really doesn't add up.

  12. #152
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    And now they have 2 OF on the roster, plus Herrmann.....2. That seems bad to me, but I could be wrong.
    Lighten up Francis....

  13. #153
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Since the Twins dealt for Presley last season, you would think that they had done due diligence on Presley's background throughout the 2013 season. This rationale on Presley's suddenly discovered alleged lack of character really doesn't add up.
    Right, I don't buy the "Presley was a bad guy" as an out for the front office. They traded for him. They brought him to Spring Training. They chose to have him be their fourth outfielder until the bitter end. That's on management and no one else.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    I agree, but it is/was close. While Hicks is certainly younger and hopefully has a better future, he's darn near an equivalent replacement level performer right now, and the depth behind him was worse. The combo of Hicks+Bartlett+Mastro could have definitely rivaled Florimon+Escobar+Santana (+Nunez/Beresford).
    And both positions are from where you frequently derive leadoff man candidates, of which the Twins still have none, and nor do their AAA and AA teams, until Buxton gets called up from Ft. Myers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    And you missed an important caveat. Had Fuld not fallen into their laps at an ideal time...we'd be seeing the like of Chris Hermann or Kenny Wilson in CF right now. So while Hermann may have a better OPS....I curl into the fetal position thinking of him manning the position. Wilson may actually give that OPS+ a run for it's money from what I can see.

    So to keep score - the Twins had one thing go wrong and had another thing not gone very right....we could've seen a horrific CF situation.
    Actually, we would be seeing Mastroianni. He was waived to make room for Fuld.

    Of course, over the past calendar year, Mastro has looked about as bad as Herrmann or Kenny Wilson probably would be.

  16. #156
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Thanks for blowing up the standard line about Hicks' status as a hindrance to upgrading the position. Brock, you're just too forgiving of the Twns on this point. Grady Sizemore has been quoted as saying the Twins never even contacted him. Bonifacio had no say in the matter on getting claimed and/or traded for. And the Twins aren't exactly known as rushing 20-year olds, not matter how good they project to be. It seems pretty clear that once they got past striking out on Davis, that they had promised Bartlett a spot and didn't even consider any other option that happened along, they even cut Jermaine Mitchell outright, to clear the depth decks even more. "Baffling", indeed.
    The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available. Again, that's the crux of this matter. What happened between the Twins and Presley between February 15th (the day the Cubs signed Bonifacio) and the end of March?

    Let's not let the tail wag the dog here. Bonifacio has a career OPS+ of 81 compared to Alex Presley's OPS+ of 96. Until Bonifacio started hitting four weeks ago, he was nobody's savior and most on this board would have taken Presley over him in a heartbeat. He's a year younger with a better track record.

    As for Sizemore, he signed in January. People are retroactively suggesting that the Twins should have been looking for a worse centerfielder than they already had on the roster in Presley.

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  18. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm not protecting anyone. I've been a LOUD opponent of Florimon being anywhere near an MLB roster for almost a year now... Louder than anyone else on this forum, I'd wager.

    More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.

    And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

    No, I didn't skip a digit there. His OPS+ is 5.

    Finding guys like Sam Fuld just isn't that hard. This thread has tossed around a half dozen names of his calibre, if not better. It's no surprise the Twins were able to find him and play musical chairs with the fourth outfielder position.
    Eric Komatsu and Clete Thomas say "Hi". This whole 25th man argument redux....yeesh.....who you hire for your 24th/25th man can be better than just these types on the fringes of baseball- if only you just plan this out and prioritize a little better. Instead we got from management: "Oh well, we struck out on Rajai....we'll try harder next time." And given the Twins current depth chart in CF, going all the way down to AA, the evidence indicates that the Twins have not only failed at bolstering this position from the day the traded Span and Revere.....they've somehow gone backwards in terms of depthbuilding.

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  20. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available. Again, that's the crux of this matter. What happened between the Twins and Presley between February 15th (the day the Cubs signed Bonifacio) and the end of March?

    Let's not let the tail wag the dog here. Bonifacio has a career OPS+ of 81 compared to Alex Presley's OPS+ of 96. Until Bonifacio started hitting four weeks ago, he was nobody's savior and most on this board would have taken Presley over him in a heartbeat. He's a year younger with a better track record.

    As for Sizemore, he signed in January. People are retroactively suggesting that the Twins should have been looking for a worse centerfielder than they already had on the roster in Presley.
    Was Presley a leadoff hitter candidate? Was Presley the baserunner that Bonifacio is? Was Presley the Super Util that could play a decent 2nd and 3rd base, as well as a fairly good CF?

    Regarding Sizemore, I was one who loudly suggested the Twins make an offer once it was announced he was coming back, should he prove to be healthy. It was the perfect, Kubel-type, buy-low with no risk move. Only his cost was much lower to buy into than Kubel is.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-02-2014 at 03:46 PM.

  21. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.
    I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.
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  23. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Was Presley a leadoff hitter candidate? Was Presley the baserunner that Bonifacio is? Was Presley the Super Util that could play a decent 2nd and 3rd base, as well as a fairly good CF?

    Regarding Sizemore, I was one who loudly suggested the Twins make an offer once it was announced he was coming back, should he prove to be healthy. It was the perfect, Kubel-type, buy-low with no risk move. Only his cost was much lower to buy into than Kubel is.
    And that's fine. You would have preferred the Twins sign other players... But that doesn't imply incompetence or mismanagement on their part.

    What we do know is that Presley was an adequate backup or stop-gap CF measure. The Twins had him under contract.

    What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.

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