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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    BTW... Plouffe has been great... If he gets hurt... I think it will get CF ugly over at the hot corner as well.
    While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

    Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

    It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

    While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Most ML clubs have no one in the majors, AAA, or AA at CF?
    No most clubs don't have two ML CF (Fuld, [Presley/Mastro]) backups behind their starter (Hicks). Using Buxton's injury to extend your point to AA is needless hyperbole, and intellectually dishonest, as they just acquired Wilson from the Bluejays by using Mastro's roster spot.

  3. #103
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    How long should I continue to give the poeple that basically built this mess the benefit of the doubt*

    *as a fan
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #104
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    My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

    *even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?
    Lighten up Francis....

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/20...ans-to-retire/

    "Bartlett, 34, was in the starting lineup for Class A Fort Myers on Thursday but the situation was relayed to Miracle manager Doug Mientkiewicz about an hour before the game. Bartlett, on the 15-day disabled list with a sprained left ankle, made it through two days of extended spring training games in Fort Myers before voluntarily ending his rehab assignment.

    Ryan Ware, Bartlett’s agent, contacted assistant general manager Rob Antony on Thursday to thank the team for the opportunity on behalf of Bartlett, who made the Opening Day roster despite missing nearly the past two full seasons with knee problems. Antony spoke with Bartlett on Friday and asked him to think over his decision for a few days, but the Twins are not expecting him to reconsider."

    A nice courtesy, but at that point, why weren't we jumping at the chance to accept Bartlett's retirement?
    For me, the suggestion that Bartlett take time speaks to their surprise, and their belief that he still could play (which may or may not have been wrong). They also didn't know Fuld would be waived a week later, which is what led to Mastro being waived (though we did get Wilson). For me, the problem is not realizing Bartlett's level of commitment.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 05-02-2014 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

    Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

    It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

    While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?
    Sam Fuld was not on teh roster at the beginning of the year.
    Lighten up Francis....

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

    *even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?
    Well that assumption certainly benefits your argument...

    They also had Mastro in AAA, and Buxton was thought to be back relatively quickly, Rosario has played center but he was suspended. They've since acquired Fuld and Wilson. You're just being hyperbolic about something that is weakness in most systems (center field depth).

    Seriously, not every team weakness is a sign of managerial incompetence.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

    *even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?
    The earliest I thought we'd see him was July.

    So you have Hicks, a former top 100 prospect as of just last season. 4+ months behind him, you have the best prospect in baseball.

    Who is going to sign with the Twins at that point? Nobody better than a Presley/Fuld-type of player.

    Hence, we sit in a position with Sam Fuld as the CF.

    Again, I think anger is directed the wrong place here. LENIII writes about the Twins not having CF depth... Well, going into March, they had two solid prospects at the position. One failed, the other is injured. They rolled the dice with young players and it failed. I'm not going to throw a fit about that happening.

    Whereas the Twins willfully opened the 2014 season with a horrific hitter at shortstop and absolutely nobody worth mentioning behind him. Where is LENIII's outrage over that blunder?

    I won't fault the team for rolling the dice on young, good players stepping up, especially when you have multiple young players at the position... but I will fault them for rolling the dice on middling, bad players doing the same at a critical infield position.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    How long should I continue to give the poeple that basically built this mess the benefit of the doubt*

    *as a fan
    Well, you shouldn't read doubt either way. To give the Twins a pass is just as hasty and lazy as making the reverse assumption. There are more than two ways to regard Twins management practices. So much of this is unknown, that it's impossible to make definitive judgments either way, especially in May. On the other hand, your criticisms of the Twins FO are so heavy-handed and definitive, that those who agree with you but disagree only in a matter of degree, get roped into the Homer crowd. You honestly don't leave a lot of room for other reasonable assessments...
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 05-02-2014 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Sam Fuld was not on teh roster at the beginning of the year.
    It's never hard to find Fuld/Mastro/Presley type players. Teams do it all season, every season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Well, you shouldn't read doubt either way. To give the Twins a pass is just as hasty and lazy as making the reverse assumption. There are more than two ways to regard Twins management practices. So much of this is unknown, that it's impossible to make definitive judgments either way, especially in May. On the other hand, your criticism of the Twins FO are so heavy-handed and definitive, that those who agree with you but disagree only in a matter of degree, get roped into the Homer crowd. You honestly don't leave a lot of room for other reasonable assessments...
    Man, earlier on this thread I thanked Brock for having a civil disagreement w/o commenting on each other....that lasted two pages.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    With that said... I've said it before... I've looked at the roster a hundred times. I can't for the life of me understand the approach they took to CF this year. And I still don't understand 3B either.

    Its one thing to give them a pass when CF blew up and left a mess all over 2013. OK... You thought Hicks would work... Ok.. It didn't... Oh well... Stuff happens... I forgive them because sometimes things don't work out.

    But... It's another thing entirely to go into 2014 with the exact same scenerio... The exact same scenerio in CF that blew up in your face in 2013... and roll the dice once again on a young kid who failed badly in 2013 with no backup option. Why would you do it again?
    Agreed. The debate isn't so much Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld -- it's that they went into 2014 with basically the exact same CF plan as 2013, which failed spectacularly. Actually, the 2014 plan was notably worse, given what happened to Hicks and Mastro in 2013, not to mention the whole Bartlett thing.

    If you had that little hope for Presley, and you couldn't land Rajai Davis, Bonifacio and Sizemore obviously were not looking for starting CF jobs. Even Sam Fuld was freely available in the offseason. (Bonifacio wasn't even a free agent, just a relatively inexpensive waiver claim.) And given Hicks' 2013, I doubt any FA looking at a one-year deal (Chris Young?) would have shied away from Minnesota fearing lack of opportunity.

    I guess it's all good if you were writing off 2014 anyway -- but then why sign all the pitchers? Or if you were determined to throw Hicks to the wolves again -- why pursue Davis then? Just a lot of bad, odd decisions.

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  14. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

    Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

    It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

    While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?
    Granted Sano got hurt... It happens. I don't hold the Twins responsible for that. I wouldn't do that.

    I have no idea what the time table was for Sano's arrival in Minnesota. My assumption was it wasn't going to be opening day. My assumption was probably June for clock reasons if everything went OK in Rochester.

    If Plouffe was hurt or continued to chase bad pitches and statuesque again at 3B. I wasn't personally comfortable with not having an alternate option in February. I was also not comfortable with rushing Sano in that scenerio.

    Plouffe has been great and my fears have subsided some? And I guess my 3B issues can be boiled down to... Why would they pass on a Bonofacio? Bonofacio could have backed up 3B and CF and moved to anywhere if Hicks and Plouffe or Sano are cooking.

    CF is the largest issue in my mind tho. Hicks wasn't a solid enough basket to put nearly every egg in.

  15. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Man, earlier on this thread I thanked Brock for having a civil disagreement w/o commenting on each other....that lasted two pages.
    Hey, I'm trying to engage you honestly; if you don't respect that, well, that's unfortunate. There's nothing uncivil about what I said, and I suppose it's your choice to take it to heart or not.

  16. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Granted Sano got hurt... It happens. I don't hold the Twins responsible for that. I wouldn't do that.

    I have no idea what the time table was for Sano's arrival in Minnesota. My assumption was it wasn't going to be opening day. My assumption was probably June for clock reasons if everything went OK in Rochester.

    If Plouffe was hurt or continued to chase bad pitches and statuesque again at 3B. I wasn't personally comfortable with not having an alternate option in February. I was also not comfortable with rushing Sano in that scenerio.
    I think Plouffe was a fine stop-gap for Sano. He was pretty bad last season but he wasn't awful. I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than a former decent prospect (and acceptable stop-gap) chased by the #6 prospect in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Why would they pass on a Bonofacio? Bonofacio could have backed up 3B and CF and moved to anywhere if Hicks and Plouffe or Sano are cooking.

    CF is the largest issue in my mind tho. Hicks wasn't a solid enough basket to put nearly every egg in.
    Well, Presley was their CF guy behind Hicks. Something happened that changed their mind. It's not as if they went into 2014 with no options, they discarded their primary option at the end of Spring Training... Why? I don't know. Something had to have happened there... I'd like to know what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

    Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

    It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

    While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?
    Agree with your first point. As disappointing as he was at times, Plouffe was still close to a league average 3B, and Sano obviously was Sano. No problem there.

    But at CF, they didn't even have that. After a full healthy offseason, they basically gave the job back by default to the young guy who skipped AAA and looked completely overwhelmed and well below average if not replacement last season, without even a hint of reasonable competition -- just a bunch of Clete Thomas types or worse. If Buxton was any part of the 2014 MLB CF planning other than "pleasant surprise" that did a great disservice to the team, fans, and Hicks.

    Again, the debate isn't Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld or even the odd roster machinations around them. It's, what in the heck are they doing in CF? Are they trying to win or not? And what in the heck are the doing with Hicks?

  18. #117
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    I actually feel kinda silly... Back in February... I thought there was reluctance to address the CF issues because I thought they were reluctant to expose someone like Parmelee.

    I thought Hicks would start in AAA and perform is way up.

    I was wrong and I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

  19. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    But at CF, they didn't even have that. After a full healthy offseason, they basically gave the job back by default to the young guy who skipped AAA and looked completely overwhelmed and well below average if not replacement last season, without even a hint of reasonable competition -- just a bunch of Clete Thomas types or worse. If Buxton was any part of the 2014 MLB CF planning other than "pleasant surprise" that did a great disservice to the team, fans, and Hicks.

    Again, the debate isn't Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld or even the odd roster machinations around them. It's, what in the heck are they doing in CF? Are they trying to win or not? And what in the heck are the doing with Hicks?
    Well, I think they expected Hicks/Presley to bridge to Buxton... Not a fool-proof plan but not one I'll deride like I will the shortstop fiasco, where the upside of the position was "if we're lucky, it won't be terrible".

    To me, all of this hinges on "what the hell happened with Presley?" Everything surrounding that situation was confusing to outsiders. I can't believe they would just give up on him without an underlying reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Because they are sentimental saps? Is that your point? For me, the suggestion that Bartlett take time speaks to their surprise, and their belief that he still could play (which may or may not have been wrong). They also didn't know Fuld would be waived a week later, which is what led to Mastro being waived (though we did get Wilson). For me, the problem is not realizing Bartlett's level of commitment.
    Fuld was DFA'd on April 12, five days before Bartlett told the Twins of his intent to retire. The Twins already knew he was heading for waivers -- guys don't sign minor league deals in February to get traded for anything of note in April.

    And the Twins' belief that Bartlett could still play "may not have been wrong"? That has been proven wrong about as much as any judgement about high-level professional athletes can be.

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  22. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Why? I don't know. Something had to have happened there... I'd like to know what it was.
    You and me both... Because that's where we stumbled into repeating the 2013 scenario.

    All in All... It's the first time in a long time... That I'm straining for an answer. I usually... at least can justify moves I disagree with.

    I can say to myself... "Well they obviously feel this way"... and I move on with my day.

    I just can't do it here. And your not helping me clear up my confusion.

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