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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I expect changes to occur, if you are one of the worst teams in the league for 3+ years. Big changes. In leadership. In strategy.
    I think the FA SP signings were a bit of a change in strategy. And the early returns on it aren't very good, and if that continues, it could lead to a change in leadership. As loyal as ownership is, they won't be very excited about an $11 million lemon in Pelfrey, or even just an underwhelming Nolasco.

  2. #82
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    We're talking past each other. I see that now... When I said "elite", I was mainly referring to Meyer, who we will almost surely see later this season. Arcia is tough to categorize. He's a very good prospect. Elite? Dunno. He's on the line.

    Gibson and Hicks never were elite. They're in the "very good" part of that sentence.
    Fair enough. Still have high hopes for Arcia, but will be surprised if Hicks, and to a lesser extent Gibson, contribute significantly to a contending Twins team.

  3. #83
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Fair enough. Still have high hopes for Arcia, but will be surprised if Hicks, and to a lesser extent Gibson, contribute significantly to a contending Twins team.
    I'm starting to doubt Hicks more every day. While Gibson's peripherals give me pause, I think he'll continue putting it together and improving as he gets more starts. I doubt he'll ever be great or maybe even good but he should be passable. The stuff is there, he just needs to trust it.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Or maybe it just takes time to rebuild a minor league system.

    Look at the Astros. Look at the Pirates. Look at Kansas City. It didn't take any of those teams three years to rebuild a system, it took them all 6+ years.

    People forget the glacial pace at which baseball rebuilds happen. It takes a long time to build something in this sport and prospects don't arrive all at once, they arrive in batches over a 3-4 year period.
    I thought the Twins already built the good minor league system? They're ranked #1 or 2, right? Building the MLB winner is the challenge, and I'm not seeing much from this front office that suggests they are capable of doing that (or even willing to do it, in some cases), sooner than the 6+ years it will take waiting for those minor leaguers to shake out, like back in the late 90's.

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  6. #85
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    I thought the Twins already built the good minor league system? They're ranked #1 or 2, right? Building the MLB winner is the challenge, and I'm not seeing much from this front office that suggests they are capable of doing that (or even willing to do it, in some cases), sooner than the 6+ years it will take waiting for those minor leaguers to shake out, like back in the late 90's.
    They've built the system but not all players are sitting in AA/AAA at once, waiting for the call-up. That part takes time. They've graduated the first wave to mixed results. Now it's time for the elite guys to step up and advance.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There were also outcries over how the Twins had no depth at catcher. That was analysis... wrong analysis.
    I don't think this is accurate -- I don't think "catcher depth" was ever really a concern. Maybe before we signed Suzuki? After that, catcher quality was definitely a concern, especially with Suzuki starting or if Pinto had gone to AAA. (Which was still somewhat wrong, although we'll see how Suzuki's season plays out.)

    Just having two guys who can approximate MLB catcher/backup catcher already has us above the 2010-2011 Twins in terms of catcher depth.

  8. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Not even remotely comparable. Meyer is head-and-shoulders above anyone from last season and right now, May is looking better than Gibson did last season.

    Last year, the Twins had one guy who projected as a decent MLB starter. This season they have one guy who looks elite and another guy who looks to be a decent MLB starter, possibly even a very good one if he keeps the walks down and continues striking out over 11 per 9.

    Also, both of those guys are two years younger than Kyle Gibson was last season.
    But you're not talking about the rotation now, you're talking about 1-2 guys. I like Meyer better than Gibson too, and I like May too (although I think you're reading a little much into his early season results?).

    But the AAA rotation, overall, is pretty much the same as before. The Twins aren't the Atlanta Braves of recent vintage, with 4-5 legit SP prospects rounding out the AAA rotation. They've got 1-2 prospects on normal promotion schedules who you'd like to see in MLB at some point, and then a bunch of filler who can hopefully keep your AAA team competitive but you don't want to see too much at the MLB level. That's standard for AAA rotations rather than any special credit to the front office. (Although I liked both the Meyer/May trades, they were really just patches for years of bad luck and failure in SP drafting/development. We'd still just be waiting around for A-ball pitchers if it wasn't for those two.)

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  10. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    I don't think this is accurate -- I don't think "catcher depth" was ever really a concern. Maybe before we signed Suzuki? After that, catcher quality was definitely a concern, especially with Suzuki starting or if Pinto had gone to AAA. (Which was still somewhat wrong, although we'll see how Suzuki's season plays out.)

    Just having two guys who can approximate MLB catcher/backup catcher already has us above the 2010-2011 Twins in terms of catcher depth.
    Were you not around for the whole Ramos trade debacle? Everyone knew Mauer's time at catcher was limited. Butera was the backup with no options in site. Catcher depth was a frequent topic. I don't think that many people saw Pinto as the the next everyday catcher before last season.

  11. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    They've built the system but not all players are sitting in AA/AAA at once, waiting for the call-up. That part takes time. They've graduated the first wave to mixed results. Now it's time for the elite guys to step up and advance.
    That's the part that makes it take 6+ years, particularly if you're not willing or able to sign FA wisely.

  12. #90
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    But you're not talking about the rotation now, you're talking about 1-2 guys. I like Meyer better than Gibson too, and I like May too (although I think you're reading a little much into his early season results?).

    But the AAA rotation, overall, is pretty much the same as before. The Twins aren't the Atlanta Braves of recent vintage, with 4-5 legit SP prospects rounding out the AAA rotation. They've got 1-2 prospects on normal promotion schedules who you'd like to see in MLB at some point, and then a bunch of filler who can hopefully keep your AAA team competitive but you don't want to see too much at the MLB level. That's standard for AAA rotations rather than any special credit to the front office. (Although I liked both the Meyer/May trades, they were really just patches for years of bad luck and failure in SP drafting/development. We'd still just be waiting around for A-ball pitchers if it wasn't for those two.)
    I never said the rotation was full of MLB-quality players... AAA rotations are almost never full of MLB-quality players.

    I said the rotation was very good, which it is. It has one impact guy, another guy who looks like he might become an impact guy, and then depth guys. That's what you want a AAA rotation to look like. A couple of guys on the brink of joining the MLB team and then fall-back options should MLB pitchers get injured.

    The biggest flaw I see in the Twins' minor league rotation(s) right now is that there's really nothing at New Britain. They have a quality rotation in AAA and several solid prospects in the low minors but AA is pretty barren right now. I expect to see that change soon but it's not a perfect scenario.

  13. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwainZag View Post
    Were you not around for the whole Ramos trade debacle? Everyone knew Mauer's time at catcher was limited. Butera was the backup with no options in site. Catcher depth was a frequent topic. I don't think that many people saw Pinto as the the next everyday catcher before last season.
    Brock was discussing debates prior to this season -- as I mention in my post, 2010-2011 was epically bad in terms of catcher depth. This season, depth wasn't much of a concern.

  14. #92
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    No hitters in AA either.....that's a problem too. And, no hitters in AAA either, that's a problem too.
    Lighten up Francis....

  15. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    No hitters in AA either.....that's a problem too. And, no hitters in AAA either, that's a problem too.
    Injuries and suspensions caused that to happen. When you have your top two hitting prospects go down in March and your third best hitter get suspended, it's going to cause issues.

  16. #94
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    True, but Sano should be in MN, meaning there would still be no one in AAA. And Rosario would give you one in AA, and not sure where Buxton would have started the year (I think A for 2-3 months was their plan). So, I guess they could have 1 in AA and one more in high A right now.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #95
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    True, but Sano should be in MN, meaning there would still be no one in AAA. And Rosario would give you one in AA, and not sure where Buxton would have started the year (I think A for 2-3 months was their plan). So, I guess they could have 1 in AA and one more in high A right now.
    Everything I read said Buxton was starting the season in New Britain.

    But you're right about Sano.

  18. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I never said the rotation was full of MLB-quality players... AAA rotations are almost never full of MLB-quality players.

    I said the rotation was very good, which it is. It has one impact guy, another guy who looks like he might become an impact guy, and then depth guys. That's what you want a AAA rotation to look like. A couple of guys on the brink of joining the MLB team and then fall-back options should MLB pitchers get injured.

    The biggest flaw I see in the Twins' minor league rotation(s) right now is that there's really nothing at New Britain. They have a quality rotation in AAA and several solid prospects in the low minors but AA is pretty barren right now. I expect to see that change soon but it's not a perfect scenario.
    Well, again, you said it in the context of crediting the front office for something positive, to counterbalance their various fumblings like the topic of this thread. But really, the current Twins AAA rotation isn't so much of a positive as a common standard. One or two prospects, a couple more interesting depth guys to stay competitive. More than that (3 or 4 prospects), I'd say good job, front office! Less than that (and we've been less than that), we'd be disappointed.

    And I share your concerns about the AA depth. Part of my AAA rotation judgement had an eye down to AA too -- if Meyer/May are for real and get promoted, there isn't another good prospect to replace them at AAA this season, maybe not even next season. As far as MLB futures are concerned, it's still a pretty shallow system (or bottom-heavy, at the moment).

    Heck, from 2006-2011, the only good SP prospects we got that came anywhere near the majors are the still-suspect Gibson and Hendriks. 2012-2013 early returns look better, but as you say, those guys are still in A-ball, and no "future stars" have jumped out yet.

  19. #97
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    The notion that the Twins should have all of Fuld, Mastro, and Presley on the roster ignores the real nuance that lead to the limited options at CF. That said, we can agree that letting Presley go for Bartlett was a poor choice; either we didn't scout Presley well enough to know about his attitude or ability or we didn't evaluate Bartlett well enough during Spring Training to know taht he was done. Losing Mastro was an unfortunate extension of that, but it meant snagging Fold, who is probably an upgrade over both.

    If we operated in a world without unexpected retirement bureaucracy, waiver-wire bureaucracy, and roster limitations, our exasperation over the CF crunch might make more sense. I see the situation as a combination of misfortune and misappraisal rather than mismanagement.

    If the Twins could only keep one of Fuld, Mastro, Presley, they have the right one. That there isn't two layers of capable depth behind Hicks is a weakness shared by most ML clubs I imagine.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 05-02-2014 at 01:07 PM.

  20. #98
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    Most ML clubs have no one in the majors, AAA, or AA at CF?
    Lighten up Francis....

  21. #99
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    I make mistakes in my job and I assume all of us do. I believe the Twins make mistakes in bunches and some of those mistakes are mistakes we are miles from knowing about.

    I also do a bunch of things right in my job and I assume all of us do. I believe the Twins front office does a lot of things right and some of those things done right... We are miles from knowing about.

    With that said... I've said it before... I've looked at the roster a hundred times. I can't for the life of me understand the approach they took to CF this year. And I still don't understand 3B either.

    Its one thing to give them a pass when CF blew up and left a mess all over 2013. OK... You thought Hicks would work... Ok.. It didn't... Oh well... Stuff happens... I forgive them because sometimes things don't work out.

    But... It's another thing entirely to go into 2014 with the exact same scenerio... The exact same scenerio in CF that blew up in your face in 2013... and roll the dice once again on a young kid who failed badly in 2013 with no backup option. Why would you do it again?

    I love Hicks... I think he will be something for us eventually but he is showing no signs of being ready. He should have started in AAA to prove something and a FA CF should have been signed.

    Bonofacio should have been signed when KC released him. Speed... Leadoff... CF and 3B insurance. All things the Twins don't have!!!

    Bartlett... Was a bad mistake!!! Trying to turn him into a Bonofacio is the biggest head scratcher I've seen in quite sometime.

    Len3 is right... He's a smart guy... Anybody smart is going to be baffled by this.

    I'll continue to give the FO the benefit of the doubt. But... I'm at the point where I want to know who drove the bus on Bartlett and the approach to CF and 3B... It makes no sense. I'd like to hear why they thought it makes sense. If its Gardy... I want to know. I really want to be educated on why so I can rest easy.

    BTW... Plouffe has been great... If he gets hurt... I think it will get CF ugly over at the hot corner as well.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 05-02-2014 at 01:18 PM.

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  23. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    If we operated in a world without unexpected retirement bureaucracy, waiver-wire bureaucracy, and roster limitations, our exasperation over the CF crunch might make more sense. I see the situation as a combination of misfortune and misappraisal rather than mismanagement.
    http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/20...ans-to-retire/

    "Bartlett, 34, was in the starting lineup for Class A Fort Myers on Thursday but the situation was relayed to Miracle manager Doug Mientkiewicz about an hour before the game. Bartlett, on the 15-day disabled list with a sprained left ankle, made it through two days of extended spring training games in Fort Myers before voluntarily ending his rehab assignment.

    Ryan Ware, Bartlettís agent, contacted assistant general manager Rob Antony on Thursday to thank the team for the opportunity on behalf of Bartlett, who made the Opening Day roster despite missing nearly the past two full seasons with knee problems. Antony spoke with Bartlett on Friday and asked him to think over his decision for a few days, but the Twins are not expecting him to reconsider."

    A nice courtesy, but at that point, why weren't we jumping at the chance to accept Bartlett's retirement?

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