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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #61
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I'm fully aware it's early for Hicks, I don't want to write him off and I don't think he should be written off for the future.

    I am, however, completely in the "worried" camp. One can be worried without giving up hope. Hicks badly needs a come to jesus talk and a demotion to AAA. The kid has a mountain of stuff to work on and taking some pressure off him while he does so is imperative.

    And this scenario should not be a shock for the Twins. That they walked into the season with the horrific options they did behind him is 100% a fair indictment. Nick said as much in a blog post right before the season and we had a line of pitchforks and torches calling him a pessimist. (A completely ridiculous preseason trend we saw far too often) And now here we are - in reality where many of us were trying to pull some people back to - with a huge problem.

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  3. #62
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'm fully aware it's early for Hicks, I don't want to write him off and I don't think he should be written off for the future.

    I am, however, completely in the "worried" camp. One can be worried without giving up hope. Hicks badly needs a come to jesus talk and a demotion to AAA. The kid has a mountain of stuff to work on and taking some pressure off him while he does so is imperative.
    Agreed fully. I was never a big fan of Hicks getting the call out of Spring Training in the first place but I can't fault the team too much for aggressively pushing for roster turnover in an attempt to right the ship.

  4. #63
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Nick said as much in a blog post right before the season and we had a line of pitchforks and torches calling him a pessimist. (A completely ridiculous preseason trend we saw far too often)
    That's painting a pretty one-sided picture of things. There were just as many pessimists who were wrong about what the team would do with Gibson and Pinto as there were homers who defended the front office at every turn.

    There are plenty of dumb opinions and comments from both sides of the coin. Let's not play up one side and ignore the other.

  5. #64
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    To me, the issue wasn't having Hicks up, the issue was the backup plan (or lack thereof), given his level of success last year. I am glad they gave Hicks another shot. I am hopeful that at some point, everyone will say "you know, it couldn't hurt to try only batting RH", and that he figures things out. But my skepticism is growing. And while I don't get to watch games anymore, I read the comments here on his fielding every day, and those are not exactly glowing (6 years into his professional career, for a guy that is supposed to be an above average fielder).
    Lighten up Francis....

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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    That's painting a pretty one-sided picture of things. There were just as many pessimists who were wrong about what the team would do with Gibson and Pinto as there were homers who defended the front office at every turn.

    There are plenty of dumb opinions and comments from both sides of the coin. Let's not play up one side and ignore the other.
    I admit many of my opinions on this site are dumb at time.
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #66
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Agreed fully. I was never a big fan of Hicks getting the call out of Spring Training in the first place but I can't fault the team too much for aggressively pushing for roster turnover in an attempt to right the ship.
    You can still have a plan B and create turnover in the roster. They could've picked up Bonafacio. Or Chris Coghlan. Or Torres. Or Chris Young. Are they sexy options? No, but they're also not nothing, aka Kenny Wilson.

    I don't fault the Twins for having Hicks start opening day. I fault them for not recognizing the clear need for a Plan B or having been dumb enough to convince themselves all the way through March that they already had Plan B on the roster. Either way you cut it, it was a forseeable and enormous screw-up.

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  10. #67
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I admit many of my opinions on this site are dumb at time.
    As are mine. I've had some real whoppers over the years. We all have... It's part of the game.

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  12. #68
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    That's painting a pretty one-sided picture of things. There were just as many pessimists who were wrong about what the team would do with Gibson and Pinto as there were homers who defended the front office at every turn.

    There are plenty of dumb opinions and comments from both sides of the coin. Let's not play up one side and ignore the other.
    The difference is that those predictions were about projections. Saying "This team has zero depth against much of anything bad happening" isn't a projection. It's an analysis. One that isn't really pessimistic/optimistic. The line to cry out against it showed how deep people wanted to defend in that they defended the indefensible.

  13. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    As are mine. I've had some real whoppers over the years. We all have... It's part of the game.
    Can I just say, that I appreciate Brock and I can disagree civilly on this thread? No one is name calling here at all. Apologies to anyone that is bored with our back and forth, but I enjoy "talking" to Brock on this site.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  15. #70
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    As are mine. I've had some real whoppers over the years. We all have... It's part of the game.
    I think you're right. It's time to find a better game to play.
    Mystery creates wonder, and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. - N. Armstrong

  16. #71
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The difference is that those predictions were about projections. Saying "This team has zero depth against much of anything bad happening" isn't a projection. It's an analysis. One that isn't really pessimistic/optimistic. The line to cry out against it showed how deep people wanted to defend in that they defended the indefensible.
    There were also outcries over how the Twins had no depth at catcher. That was analysis... wrong analysis.

    Just because it's analysis doesn't mean it's right. Yeah, the Twins could have done something about centerfield. Honestly, I don't really care that they didn't... It required a few things to go wrong for this to be a real problem. Hicks had to fall on his face again. Buxton had to get injured, preventing any kind of "one month patch" to bridge over to him at center. And, at the end of the day, Sam Fuld has played pretty well.

    On the other hand, shortstop. THAT is the one glaring "what the &^%$ are you thinking?" offseason move, IMO.

  17. #72
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Can I just say, that I appreciate Brock and I can disagree civilly on this thread? No one is name calling here at all. Apologies to anyone that is bored with our back and forth, but I enjoy "talking" to Brock on this site.
    Yep. I always enjoy disagreeing with you, Mike.

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  19. #73
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It required a few things to go wrong for this to be a real problem. Hicks had to fall on his face again. Buxton had to get injured, preventing any kind of "one month patch" to bridge over to him at center. And, at the end of the day, Sam Fuld has played pretty well.
    What is going on in this paragraph? It's honestly not coherent Brock. What "few things" had to go wrong? Hicks to fall down on his face after...falling down on his face all of last year? Ok, there's one very easy to predict thing I guess. After that are you suggesting Buxton was Plan B? I'm not sure even your most optimistic of fan would think that was any part of the equation. Buxton being hurt had absolutely no bearing on the MLB CF position for this year. Next year? Ok, I could see it. This year? His injury hurts the future but has nothing to do with the present.

    The last part is an example of a dumb stroke of luck that a semi-servicable player was cut just when they needed it.

    So, to recap...one thing went wrong....and it was hardly shocking. Everything else is on the Twins for not adding anyone as a viable Plan B or convincing themselves until March that Presley/Mastro was sufficient.

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  21. #74
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It amazes me how little patience people show with prospects. Haven't we been through this a dozen times already? Was Morneau no longer an elite prospect because he OPSed at .650 in his rookie season? What about Cuddyer? What about Kubel? What about Hunter? What about Santana?
    Morneau's 'rookie season' was about 100 AB's. He OPSed nearly .900 the following year. Cuddyer became a respectable hitter almost immediately, though it took the Twins several years to catch on to that fact. Kubel needed only a half season to shake off the rust of a year lost to injury before he started to hit. It took Santana only 130 innings until he began to pitch at a Cy Young level.

    There's a difference between pronouncing a prospect a failure and not according him elite status after seeing issues in their game at the major league level. Gibson, Arcia, and Hicks should all be given every chance to prove they belong in the majors, but they're not in the same conversation as Buxton, Meyer, and Sano.

  22. #75
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    What is going on in this paragraph? It's honestly not coherent Brock. What "few things" had to go wrong? Hicks to fall down on his face after...falling down on his face all of last year? Ok, there's one very easy to predict thing I guess. After that are you suggesting Buxton was Plan B? I'm not sure even your most optimistic of fan would think that was any part of the equation. Buxton being hurt had absolutely no bearing on the MLB CF position for this year. Next year? Ok, I could see it. This year? His injury hurts the future but has nothing to do with the present.

    The last part is an example of a dumb stroke of luck that a semi-servicable player was cut just when they needed it.

    So, to recap...one thing went wrong....and it was hardly shocking. Everything else is on the Twins for not adding anyone as a viable Plan B or convincing themselves until March that Presley/Mastro was sufficient.
    My point is that sometimes, you need to just rely on prospects and say "you're our guy this season" and hope it works out. If that player completely collapses, well... then you know you can't rely on him anymore.

    To me, I don't care if the Twins run out Sam Fuld, Darin Mastroianni, or Alex Presley if Hicks bombs out. They're all bad players and no good player would have signed with a team that wants to see Hicks and Buxton succeed and replace them.

  23. #76
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    There's a difference between pronouncing a prospect a failure and not according him elite status after seeing issues in their game at the major league level. Gibson, Arcia, and Hicks should all be given every chance to prove they belong in the majors, but they're not in the same conversation as Buxton, Meyer, and Sano.
    We're talking past each other. I see that now... When I said "elite", I was mainly referring to Meyer, who we will almost surely see later this season. Arcia is tough to categorize. He's a very good prospect. Elite? Dunno. He's on the line.

    Gibson and Hicks never were elite. They're in the "very good" part of that sentence.

  24. #77
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    No, but they're also not nothing, aka Kenny Wilson.
    Kenny Wilson's mom dislikes this post, and thinks TheLeviathan owes her a steak dinner.

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  26. #78
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    I think it's really Bartlett's place on the 25-Man roster that can be pointed to as the source to all the CF problems.
    If the Twins picked Presley over Bartlett, then we probably still have Presley/Mastro/Hicks in the system.
    Instead we have Fuld/Hicks/Kenny Wilson - only two of those have any business on the major league club. If Hicks is out for any significant time, it just stretches everything more.
    I will say that I think I'd rather have Fuld as the 4th outfielder than either Presley or Mastro. I think as a 2 for 1 deal, I'd rather have Presley and Mastro instead of just Fuld for depth and injury coverage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm not sure what you expect from a AAA rotation. The Twins have one guy who looks to front the rotation soon, another guy who has shown enormous growth this season and could slot in as a #3 guy if he continues missing bats and minimizing walks, and then they have 2-3 guys who are fringe prospects.

    That's a very good AAA rotation with depth.
    Well, in that context, I agree, but on terms of scale, it's about one or two gold stars on the positive side of the front office ledger, which is where you brought it up. (And most of that is due to Meyer.)

    This club's MLB rotation work has been about negative ten gold stars annually, it seems. Hard to make that up in AAA rotation depth, or interesting A-ball pitchers...

    Also, wasn't the Rochester rotation comparable last year? I like the Meyer/May upside better but generally this kind of "very good AAA rotation with depth" gives you a competitive AAA club, not great MLB options (outside the top guy):
    Gibson -> Meyer
    Hendriks -> May
    Albers -> Darnell (actually Darnell was there last year too)
    Walters, Hernandez, etc -> Johnson, Pino, etc.

  28. #80
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Also, wasn't the Rochester rotation comparable last year? I like the Meyer/May upside better but generally this kind of "very good AAA rotation with depth" gives you a competitive AAA club, not great MLB options (outside the top guy):
    Gibson -> Meyer
    Hendriks -> May
    Albers -> Darnell (actually Darnell was there last year too)
    Walters, Hernandez, etc -> Johnson, Pino, etc.
    Not even remotely comparable. Meyer is head-and-shoulders above anyone from last season and right now, May is looking better than Gibson did last season.

    Last year, the Twins had one guy who projected as a decent MLB starter. This season they have one guy who looks elite and another guy who looks to be a decent MLB starter, possibly even a very good one if he keeps the walks down and continues striking out over 11 per 9.

    Also, both of those guys are two years younger than Kyle Gibson was last season.

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