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Thread: Alex Meyer Rerun or just showing More Consistency

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I'm not sure I'd call it disappointing. The Twins need to do what's best for Meyer in the long term, and unless they suddenly find themselves in a penant race, there's not a good reason to bring him up when there are other guys on the 40 who are pitching rather well in Rochester.
    Why are we so focused on delaying calling up our best players until we're in a pennant race? By that logic, we may as well not call up Meyer, Buxton or Sano until about 2017 or perhaps never, because this team is just not likely going to be a legitimate contender without its best talents firmly ensconced in their major league careers. And you don't get there until you've put in the time at that level enough to get in your comfort zone and produce predictably.

    No. This is disappointing, because it means that Meyer's progression is being slow-played, which potentially delays him in starting the process- that can only be accomplished while at the major league level- ie, of reaching his ceiling potential sooner rather than later. I don't know about you, but I'd like 2015 to be the first year that we'll have been considered a legitimate contender in the last 5 years. This type of delaying move makes the likelihood of that happening much less likely.

    And the other guys pitching well in Rochester? Ask yourself honestly, which of these other guys in the rotation is going to be a difference maker, to a man, they project as anywhere from back-end rotation starters to depth filler (maybe May makes it somewhere between #3-4 starter status, but it's just as likely that he ends up as a reliever).

    You said I offered no "good reason" to bring up Meyer by this summer- to the contrary- in this post and my more extensive one at #36, I've offered multiple good reasons why the Twins should be moving forward with Meyer and a promotion no later than just after the Super 2 date. And then there's this last reason: by not promoting Meyer if he continues to pitch better than Randy Johnson did at the same point in their respective careers, the Twins invite all kinds of speculation that their motives are financially based- do they really want to go there with the paying public?

  2. #22
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    I don't get the logic in keeping your best players down until the team is a contendor. How do they become contednors with their best players in the minors?

    I think what some of us would like is for Meyer to get more starts in MN than in AAA, so that next year he's ready. I remain hopeful Buxton and Sano are on this roster next year. Would be great if they spread out the number of rookies, and if more guys were more ready for their arrival. Or, I could be wrong, and their best players should be in the minors waiting until they are nigh on perfect at everything before being called up.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Just a point, but I'm not sure using Randy Johnson, a hall of famer, as a comparrison point is what we should be doing when evaluating our prospects. If everyone who had those numbers turned into Johnson, then there would be a ton of HOF pitchers out there. The reality is that they most likely won't... That's true of Gibson and of Meyer, even if their ceilings will allow for it. What worked for Johnson won't necessarily work for our guys. Each guy is going to have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

    Right now, with Johnson, May, and Darnell all performing, Meyer is not going to be on the top of the call up list, for no other reason than that he still is refining some things and he's not on the 40 man... and given that this team is not a contender, I see no problems with that. I might sing a different tune if Pelfrey was the 5 starter and this was a legit 90 win team... but it isn't.
    Straw man argument. I have not said that Meyer is going to the HOF- of course we don't know if he has a Johnson career ahead of him, but we do know that Johnson struggled to get established, not being a dominant ML pitcher until age 28- and Meyer's numbers are ahead of Johnson's, and yet it appears that Meyer will not be called up anytime soon even though Johnson was- and was allowed to struggle, develop and grow into a dominant pitcher at the major league level.

    In fact, I have said that their height, career backgrounds and electric stuff are nearly identical- except that Meyer evidentially appears to ahead of Johnson at the same point of development- and that is all I've said.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-05-2014 at 10:52 AM.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't get the logic in keeping your best players down until the team is a contendor. How do they become contednors with their best players in the minors?

    I think what some of us would like is for Meyer to get more starts in MN than in AAA, so that next year he's ready. I remain hopeful Buxton and Sano are on this roster next year. Would be great if they spread out the number of rookies, and if more guys were more ready for their arrival. Or, I could be wrong, and their best players should be in the minors waiting until they are nigh on perfect at everything before being called up.
    Yeah, "consistency" and "progress" are a fickle thing, it appears that the standard for the best players is calibrated more towards "perfection"- I would think this kind of slow-play, should it continue, would invite scrutiny from the player's union. There's one thing like the Rays and Cardinals delaying calling up their top prospect for the Super 2 rule, heck, the rule was agreed upon by both sides in the CBA. But if Meyer ends up getting shut down before a call-up this year, followed by the fans not seeing Buxton or Sano until say, Super 2 date, 2016, then that says something else. And it also means that this team won't be competing for a pennant any time soon.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Yeah, "consistency" and "progress" are a fickle thing, it appears that the standard for the best players is calibrated more towards "perfection"- I would think this kind of slow-play, should it continue, would invite scrutiny from the player's union. There's one thing like the Rays and Cardinals delaying calling up their top prospect for the Super 2 rule, heck, the rule was agreed upon by both sides in the CBA. But if Meyer ends up getting shut down before a call-up this year, followed by the fans not seeing Buxton or Sano until say, Super 2 date, 2016, then that says something else. And it also means that this team won't be competing for a pennant any time soon.

    My personal opionion, no way will the Twins bring up Meyer prior to the Super 2 deadline. Buxton's late start and Sano's injury make super 2 next year a real possibility for both. As far as the players union, we have been down that road before (Perkins). But it is very difficult to prove so the Twins will win.

  7. #26
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    I think Meyer comes up when an injury or trade opens up a spot. The Twins have been without starting pitching depth for years. They aren't going to give away pitchers in May. Meyer is very likely to see the big leagues this season. Correia will pitch the second half of the season on a different team. Pelfrey might be worthless and Deduno is fragile.

    I think Trevor May gets called up in September and it might be to replace Meyer in the rotation when he reaches 150 innings pitched.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Why are we so focused on delaying calling up our best players until we're in a pennant race? By that logic, we may as well not call up Meyer, Buxton or Sano until about 2017 or perhaps never, because this team is just not likely going to be a legitimate contender without its best talents firmly ensconced in their major league careers. And you don't get there until you've put in the time at that level enough to get in your comfort zone and produce predictably.

    No. This is disappointing, because it means that Meyer's progression is being slow-played, which potentially delays him in starting the process- that can only be accomplished while at the major league level- ie, of reaching his ceiling potential sooner rather than later. I don't know about you, but I'd like 2015 to be the first year that we'll have been considered a legitimate contender in the last 5 years. This type of delaying move makes the likelihood of that happening much less likely.

    And the other guys pitching well in Rochester? Ask yourself honestly, which of these other guys in the rotation is going to be a difference maker, to a man, they project as anywhere from back-end rotation starters to depth filler (maybe May makes it somewhere between #3-4 starter status, but it's just as likely that he ends up as a reliever).

    You said I offered no "good reason" to bring up Meyer by this summer- to the contrary- in this post and my more extensive one at #36, I've offered multiple good reasons why the Twins should be moving forward with Meyer and a promotion no later than just after the Super 2 date. And then there's this last reason: by not promoting Meyer if he continues to pitch better than Randy Johnson did at the same point in their respective careers, the Twins invite all kinds of speculation that their motives are financially based- do they really want to go there with the paying public?
    Jokin, just to be clear, I'm not saying wait until we are a contender. I am saying that Meyer still has some things to do and that there are guys on the 40 man who are preforming well and deserve a shot. If we were a contender, I'd see the logic in rushing Meyer as he's likely better than those other guys, but absent a spot on the 40 man and some issues that Meyer needs to work on, it makes a ton more sense to let those other guys get a shot first. I really don't see the point in rushing him. Rushing prospects rarely works, and I see little that can be gained in the short term from doing it as well.

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  10. #28
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    rushing is a loaded word. It creates a tautology, imo.

    Actually, the truly elite players do come up early/young. There was a study on this last year on teh interwebs.
    Lighten up Francis....

  11. #29
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    and Meyer isn't exactly old.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    and Meyer isn't exactly old.
    Not old, but not "elite young" either....and he'll be entering his 31 year old season when they would lose control of him......I just want 10+ starts in MN this year....if for no other reason to make next year more likely to be successful.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    I'd be surprised if he didn't receive 10 starts this season. Last year, Gibson received 10 MLB starts and didn't have nearly the success in Rochester that Meyer is having this season.

  14. #32
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    I really don't see the issues with leaving him in the minors based upon the information available. We know he's had health issues and is working on a new pitch. He was likely left in the minors to demonstrate he was healthy and could meet the challenge of AAA.

    I think he's certainly shown enough for most to agree he's ready for the majors (understanding his arsenal of "stuff"/talent). Since he's refining a pitch (I have no idea where he's at with that or any other pitch), I'm assuming he's building a level of confidence in the same, and I believe in the validity that confidence in "stuff" changes good to devastating.

    I'm sure that the Twins know what they have in Meyer, and are looking at maximizing the asset based upon years, salaries, roster building, and maybe what kind of bobblehead/Perkins-included commercials they could make (and a myriad of other factors).

    To me, they made a valid decision based upon the factors, and it makes sense to hold off a bit, let him dominate and get really hungry....he'll get his taste if he keeps going.

    I put zero credence in anything a GM (assistant or otherwise) says is the reason for a decision, in contrast to what they have relied upon in making a decision (think Spring Training stats).
    I will one day successfully sneak onto the Sportive Podcast, and have nothing intelligent to say or add to the conversation.

  15. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'd be surprised if he didn't receive 10 starts this season. Last year, Gibson received 10 MLB starts and didn't have nearly the success in Rochester that Meyer is having this season.
    I was holding out hope for seeing Meyer hit the ZiPS projections of 21 starts and 101 innings, especially now that we know the innings limitation has been more strictly defined to be in the 150-160 range. At this point, and partly based on the Antony comments and the kid glove treatment, I think we'll be lucky to see him get 10 starts/60 innings, seems unlikely unless lots of things go right, and wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I was holding out hope for seeing Meyer hit the ZiPS projections of 21 starts and 101 innings, especially now that we know the innings limitation has been more strictly defined to be in the 150-160 range. At this point, and partly based on the Antony comments and the kid glove treatment, I think we'll be lucky to see him get 10 starts/60 innings, seems unlikely unless lots of things go right, and wrong.
    To be fair, Trevor May has a say in this as well... And it's hard to fault the Twins for potentially going with the guy who is already on the 40 man as opposed to the guy who is not on the 40 man and is currently refining a new pitch.

    Man, it's hard not to be impressed with Trevor May this season.

  17. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    To be fair, Trevor May has a say in this as well... And it's hard to fault the Twins for potentially going with the guy who is already on the 40 man as opposed to the guy who is not on the 40 man and is currently refining a new pitch.

    Man, it's hard not to be impressed with Trevor May this season.
    I am greatly encouraged with May as well, his peripheral improvements jump off the page. But his path to major league prominence as a starting pitcher isn't nearly as certain as Meyer's is. And May's developmental progression has been like clockwork- to take 2 years per level to ultimately master (or at least make himself promotable from) that level- which gives me pause that he will end up proving to be effective at the Major League level in 2014.

  18. #36
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    I can listen to both sides of the argument and find valid points, and can probably be swayed either way.
    However, can we please stop this "rushing him up here" nonsense?
    He is 24 years old. Whenever he does get up here, he will not have been rushed.
    He is a top prospect, he's not Trevor Plouffe or Brian Dozier or Josmil Pinto, or even Oswaldo Arcia.
    He is a legit, front line prospect, who would be the #1 prospect in many farm systems in baseball. Those kind of prospects are usually up at a pretty young age.

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  20. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    I can listen to both sides of the argument and find valid points, and can probably be swayed either way.
    However, can we please stop this "rushing him up here" nonsense?
    He is 24 years old. Whenever he does get up here, he will not have been rushed.
    He is a top prospect, he's not Trevor Plouffe or Brian Dozier or Josmil Pinto, or even Oswaldo Arcia.
    He is a legit, front line prospect, who would be the #1 prospect in many farm systems in baseball. Those kind of prospects are usually up at a pretty young age.
    Exactly right. Well-stated.

    I don't get the gentle flower/china doll/babe in the forest syndrome. The only argument that holds sway in holding him back is his 6'9" stature and the inconsistent mechanics that come from it- possibly leading to potential inconsistencies and health concerns. The Twins were right to shut Meyer down last year- but all reports indicate that it was only a minor shoulder irritation- and Meyer hit the ground running once he returned and he has never looked back, continuing his upward developmental trajectory arc this spring. He apparently was struggling with his delivery of the circle change- again, possibly because of his height, and quickly developed an alternate effective 3rd pitch...........This is the kind of adjustment that a major league-level pitcher makes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Exactly right. Well-stated.

    I don't get the gentle flower/china doll/babe in the forest syndrome. The only argument that holds sway in holding him back is his 6'9" stature and the inconsistent mechanics that come from it- possibly leading to potential inconsistencies and health concerns. The Twins were right to shut Meyer down last year- but all reports indicate that it was only a minor shoulder irritation- and Meyer hit the ground running once he returned and he has never looked back, continuing his upward developmental trajectory arc this spring. He apparently was struggling with his delivery of the circle change- again, possibly because of his height, and quickly developed an alternate effective 3rd pitch...........This is the kind of adjustment that a major league-level pitcher makes.
    I don't think anyone is questioning that Meyer is a future MLB player. He has the stuff.

    At this point, we agree that Meyer would not be "rushed" if he was called up today. On the other hand, with him now developing a new pitch that still looks a bit inconsistent based on his last outing, I don't think it's a bad idea to let him refine that pitching to AAA hitters.

    But if he strings together 3-4 good starts, he should absolutely get the nod, provided that the Twins rotation has the space (and I think we can all agree that for Meyer, they should make the space).

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I don't think anyone is questioning that Meyer is a future MLB player. He has the stuff.

    At this point, we agree that Meyer would not be "rushed" if he was called up today. On the other hand, with him now developing a new pitch that still looks a bit inconsistent based on his last outing, I don't think it's a bad idea to let him refine that pitching to AAA hitters.

    But if he strings together 3-4 good starts, he should absolutely get the nod, provided that the Twins rotation has the space (and I think we can all agree that for Meyer, they should make the space).
    It was Antony that talked about the "intensity" contrast in Rochester vs. Minnesota. That invites all of the sympathetic responses- folks are simply used to the slow-play from the Twins and assume that that's how it's done most everywhere else- which is just not the case.

    Having said that, I fully agree with your points- my admonitions are around the idea that the Twins promote him sooner rather than later- not "Yesterday!" I remain hopeful that Antony's comments are not indicative of a 2015 debut. He's going to have used up close to half of his allotted innings by June 1. That won't leave many starting opportunities with the Twins- in which case, I'm fine with Gardy's ST suggestion of bringing up Meyer to throw out of the pen- not a bad way to get your feet wet in the majors.

  23. #40
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    What if May and Meyer are both ready.....and better than 2 or 3 of the Twins current starters? What would you do (not what would the Twins do, what would you do)? Do you hold them down to keep depth? Do you promote them to try to reward people that pay for tickets and show the team that it isn't "about a future that never comes*"?

    *used courtesy of Mr. Hunter....
    Lighten up Francis....

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