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Thread: Alex Meyer Rerun or just showing More Consistency

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    Alex Meyer Rerun or just showing More Consistency

    Alex Meyer tonight again goes 6 IP, 0 Runs, 11 Ks, 100 pitches

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    Playoffs get moved up and start tomorrow because of a confirmed Armageddon due in June. Who starts the one game play-in game for the Twins? I choose Meyer sight unseen.

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    Watched on first pitch app. Alot of called third strikes...like 8 if im not mistaken. He missed his spots alot from what i could see. Still a great outing, other club was pretty weak. High pitch count. Rob antony was there and will also see his next start.

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    It is time. The Twins burned too many of Gibson's pitches in the minors last year. Meyer is ready to struggle in the majors. Struggle is an important part of growth and there isn't enough struggle matched up against AAA pitchers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Watched on first pitch app. Alot of called third strikes...like 8 if im not mistaken. He missed his spots alot from what i could see. Still a great outing, other club was pretty weak. High pitch count. Rob antony was there and will also see his next start.
    I'm not worried about the weak team argument. He dominated the PawSox in his last outing and was striking out major leaguers and top prospects in that game. I'm also not worried about the 8 called third strikes. At this point, the guy's stuff, especially with the new change-up, is virtually unhittable. All in all, with his slightly higher pitch count (boosted by a Romero error), he still represents a legitimate option to possibly get into the 7th inning in every game.
    Last edited by jokin; 04-28-2014 at 09:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    It is time. The Twins burned too many of Gibson's pitches in the minors last year. Meyer is ready to struggle in the majors. Struggle is an important part of growth and there isn't enough struggle matched up against AAA pitchers.
    Right on jorgenwest. I hope the Twins learned from their misguided obstinance last year in holding Gibson back needlessly. They could debut Meyer starts twice in the next homestand, May 13 against Boston and May 18 against Seattle. I hope they seriously consider doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I'm not worried about the weak team argument. He dominated the PawSox in his last outing and was striking out major leaguers and top prospects in that game. I'm also not worried about the 8 called third strikes. At this point, the guy's stuff, especially with the new change-up, is virtually unhittable. All in all, with his slightly higher pitch count (aided by a Robinson error), he still represents a legitimate option to possibly get into the 7th inning in every game.
    Yes but the line looks much better than the actual product. This isn't fantasy baseball here. He has a lot he can still work on down on the farm. He isn't that close to the majors imo because of service time and not being on the 40. Could he come up and struggle, sure. But that doesnt make much sense at this time. Would the cardinals do that? No. Would the rays do that? No. If he keeps up this pace, he might be up by July, but no sooner. When he comes up, he needs to be up for good. Every 24 year old has improvements he can make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Would the cardinals do that? No.
    Wacha?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Yes but the line looks much better than the actual product. This isn't fantasy baseball here. He has a lot he can still work on down on the farm. He isn't that close to the majors imo because of service time and not being on the 40. Could he come up and struggle, sure. But that doesnt make much sense at this time. Would the cardinals do that? No. Would the rays do that? No. If he keeps up this pace, he might be up by July, but no sooner. When he comes up, he needs to be up for good. Every 24 year old has improvements he can make.
    Why? Is there data to suggest that this has to happen? The fact is, the opposite is true, it's actually more rare that once a player is called up, he's up for good. And no one is suggesting that Meyer is merely putting up unreplicable fantasy stats- just that every expert concurs that he has elite stuff and a high ceiling. Randy Johnson didn't put it all together until he was 28.....he learned on the job at the major league level through his mid-20s before finally becoming a "pitcher". Meyer appears to be on a faster track, with similar stuff.

    You ask, "could he come up and struggle, sure." I ask, "could he come up and be a key part of the rotation, sure." His performance against Pawtucket supports my case. When a guy is demonstrating that he is one of the best franchise options, you let the colt out of the barn and see what he's got. The Cards and Rays included. If he needs some fine tuning back in Rochester, so be it, but I think he's demonstrating that he's a good enough athlete to make improvements while on the job at the major league level- and it doesn't cost anything to find out.
    Last edited by jokin; 04-28-2014 at 09:34 PM.

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    Originally Posted by Twins Twerp Would the cardinals do that? No. Would the rays do that? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatt Crapps View Post
    Wacha?
    And Price?

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    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    When a guy has 2.7 ERA and 35 Ks, 11 BB in 5 starts in AAA, he had better be on the ML roster, when your alternatives are Pelfrey or Corriea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Why? Is there data to suggest that this has to happen? The fact is, the opposite is true, it's actually more rare that once a player is called up, he's up for good. And no one is suggesting that Meyer is merely putting up unreplicable fantasy stats- just that every expert concurs that he has elite stuff and a high ceiling. Randy Johnson didn't put it all together until he was 28.....he learned on the job at the major league level through his mid-20s before finally becoming a "pitcher". Meyer appears to be on a faster track, with similar stuff

    You ask, "could he come up and struggle, sure." I ask, "could he come up and be a key part of the rotation, sure." His performance against Pawtucket supports my case. When a guy is demonstrating that he is one of the best franchise options, you let the colt out of the barn and see what he's got. The Cards and Rays included. If he needs some fine tuning back in Rochester, so be it, but I think he's demonstrating that he's a good enough athlete to make improvements while on the job at the major league level- and it doesn't cost anything to find out.
    Agree to disagree. Im not going to respond to your trolling just because you use bold. i was simply giving my opinion on what i think the twins would do and some observations from the game which i watched on a shi//y feed on an ipad. What is so wrong with making a few starts in AAA? He made very few starts between AA and AFL (16 before AFL last year) last year.

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    Meyer's problem is that the Twins have 11M into Pelfrey and 5M into Correia. Why that's a problem for his Twins debut says everything about the Twins FO.

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    moderator note, tone down on the sniping please.

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    My 2 cents, for what it's worth. I think the 40 man thing is a big deal. I also think the higher number of walks is a big deal. He's going to need to limit them. Meyer will be up with the team soon, but I do question the wisdom in bringing him up to struggle if it means sending him back down later in the season, and it's also quite possible he will be on an innings limit (though that comes from me,not from any source).

    With both Darnell and Johnson being on the 40 man and doing quite well, it isn't as though the Twins are bringing up some crap pitcher just to save a buck. These guys will deserve their shot too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    My 2 cents, for what it's worth. I think the 40 man thing is a big deal.

    I also think the higher number of walks is a big deal. He's going to need to limit them. Meyer will be up with the team soon,

    but I do question the wisdom in bringing him up to struggle if it means sending him back down later in the season,

    and it's also quite possible he will be on an innings limit (though that comes from me,not from any source).

    With both Darnell and Johnson being on the 40 man and doing quite well, it isn't as though the Twins are bringing up some crap pitcher just to save a buck. These guys will deserve their shot too.
    From Berardino on the new pitch:

    “Alex said, ‘This is kind of what you showed me one time,’ ” Rasmussen said. “This is a pitch he can throw more with his fastball fingers. That’s the way I would classify it. It’s closer to feeling like a fastball for him. There’s different names for it. Some people call it a ‘pitchfork’ grip. The key is that he’s confident with it. That’s a step forward.”
    Fellow Red Wings starters Kris Johnson and Logan Darnell have both raved about the Meyer changeup upon getting the call to the big leagues in recent days. For Rasmussen and Twins player-development people, the key will be if Meyer can keep throwing his newfound pitch even if it starts to get hit a time or two.
    “We always talk about the changeup being like rabbits — they multiply,” Rasmussen said. “You throw 15 in a game, it seems like a lot more. It’s not like you have to throw it a lot. It sure seems to have a lot of effect. If you have the ability to throw three pitches over, hitters can’t eliminate something.”
    Sounds like a work in progress and providing the reasoning to slow-play his promotion to the Twins. Meyer struggling in his latest start adds ammunition to that argument, although it isn't clear if his bad start was due to a problem with the change-up or something else. But there's more that codifies what the "Twins development people" are thinking- about his development and the imposition of an innings limit:

    Twins assistant general manager Rob Antony said this weekend 30 percent might be the working multiplier for someone like Meyer.


    “I think 30 percent is pretty much the standard,” Antony said. “It’s kind of the guideline you work under. You monitor it. If all of a sudden the velocity starts to decrease, that’s often a precursor to fatigue. You can always skip a start. We just want him to stay healthy throughout the year and continue to progress.”


    Kyle Gibson was capped at 152 2/3 innings last season, but he was in his first full year back from Tommy John surgery.

    Adding 30 percent to Meyer’s estimated total of 120 innings last season would have the Twins shutting him down at around 156 innings.


    The question now is at what point those innings might start to accrue at the big-league level?


    “The intensity is a lot different (in the minors),” Antony said. “You definitely can control things there.”
    Translation and Predictions? It appears that "progress" has replaced "consistency" as the new watchword for slow-playing Meyer's promotion to the Twins. And that Meyer's health and apparent China Doll status has to be protected in a "controlled" setting away from the "intensity" of MLB. I'm now thinking, barring catastrophe in the Twins rotation, the Twins are inclined to not promote Meyer unless he forces their hand, and we definitely won't be seeing a September call-up for Meyer, as no matter where he pitches this year, his season will likely be done by September 1... I'm now looking for a 2015 big-club-for-good debut, and possibly not until after the Super 2 date in June of that year....in the aftermath of a grievance filed by Scott Boras.

    We saw with Johnson's appearance last Thursday, there's a reason why the 29-year-old Kris Johnson has been unable to ever stick at the major league level. And obviously, none of the other depth pitchers can offer the potential that Meyer brings to the table. But because of their roster status, they all will get their extended major league apprenticeships at the expense of Alex Meyer having to wait his turn. Disappointing, to say the least.


    You said this:

    I also think the higher number of walks is a big deal.
    I go back again to Randy Johnson, who is the closest prototype for what we have in Alex Meyer.

    Randy Johnson's AAA numbers just before his call-up to Montreal- and the beginning of his 3 year big league apprenticeship before he found pitching dominance:

    K/9: 8.7
    BB/9: 5.6
    SO/W: 1.58
    ERA: 3.20

    Alex Meyer's AAA numbers:

    K/9: 11.51
    BB/9: 3.97
    SO/W: 2.86
    ERA: 3.45
    Last edited by jokin; 05-05-2014 at 08:27 AM.

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    I'm not sure I'd call it disappointing. The Twins need to do what's best for Meyer in the long term, and unless they suddenly find themselves in a penant race, there's not a good reason to bring him up when there are other guys on the 40 who are pitching rather well in Rochester.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I hope the Twins learned from their misguided obstinance last year in holding Gibson back needlessly.
    This is the same Kyle Gibson that was awful after he was promoted? Gibson proved the Twins right, not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJL44 View Post
    This is the same Kyle Gibson that was awful after he was promoted? Gibson proved the Twins right, not the other way around.
    This point has been much debated over time- and it's highly debatable that when Gibson was called up last year proved anything. It is arguable that the Twins called up Gibson well after his TJ weakened arm was still live. And as in the case of Randy Johnson, Gibson has acknowledged that he learned from his time last year to come in with a better plan and approach this season. You can't get there until you are there.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-05-2014 at 10:14 AM.

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    Just a point, but I'm not sure using Randy Johnson, a hall of famer, as a comparrison point is what we should be doing when evaluating our prospects. If everyone who had those numbers turned into Johnson, then there would be a ton of HOF pitchers out there. The reality is that they most likely won't... That's true of Gibson and of Meyer, even if their ceilings will allow for it. What worked for Johnson won't necessarily work for our guys. Each guy is going to have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

    Right now, with Johnson, May, and Darnell all performing, Meyer is not going to be on the top of the call up list, for no other reason than that he still is refining some things and he's not on the 40 man... and given that this team is not a contender, I see no problems with that. I might sing a different tune if Pelfrey was the 5 starter and this was a legit 90 win team... but it isn't.

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