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Thread: Unwritten Rules are Not Smart

  1. #101
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    I'm not advocating violence here. Just saying that the unwritten rules are a part (and at times a significant part) of the fabric of the game.

    And eliminating them would remove a lot of the history, tradition and appeal of the game. But you can console yourself that like all traditions, the unwritten rules will evolve over time.
    Also, this is an elementary fallacy.

  2. #102
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Respecting common courtesy isn't the same thing as respecting a code of "do it our way because we said so or else".
    Levi, I realize you are too far invested in your position by now (we've all been there) but there's not really much of a difference. jmo

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  4. #103
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Levi, I realize you are too far invested in your position by now (we've all been there) but there's not really much of a difference. jmo
    They are absolutely not the same. It's curtesy to not cut someone off in your car. That's not the same as "We all drive 55 in this county and if you go 56 we'll hurl something at you"

    Unwritten rules having nothing to do with curtesy as Porter and others are clearly demonstrating.

  5. #104
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    None of that is about courtesy. It's about a small group of people trying to impose their belief set on everyone else through threats, intimidation, etc.
    If baseball's unwritten rules are a small set of people trying to impose their belief set on everyone else, then they WILL eventually change and evolve.

    You seem to be focusing on a small group -- I'm talking about the totality of the community. If the baseball community -- AS A COMMUNITY -- comes to the conclusion that a particular unwritten rule is unfair or needs to change then the rule will eventually change.

  6. #105
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    If baseball's unwritten rules are a small set of people trying to impose their belief set on everyone else, then they WILL eventually change and evolve.

    You seem to be focusing on a small group -- I'm talking about the totality of the community. If the baseball community -- AS A COMMUNITY -- comes to the conclusion that a particular unwritten rule is unfair or needs to change then the rule will eventually change.
    Except these rules do take a long time to change when they are part of an insular community because the light of reason has a hard time shining on their fallacies. Just like you got caught up in tradition, so do they. There isn't enough outside influence working against the dogma.

    It's totally nonsensical to keep following those rules but for those without perspective they don't see the folly in it. So it stays insular and protected and perpetuated.

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  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    It is a matter of common courtesy and of respect for the culture and traditions in the community.

    Oops, didn't someone mention courtesy above? Perhaps that is what some of you don't understand.
    So what if my neighbor on one side of me is against mowing your lawn on Sunday, while the neighbor on the other side of me is against mowing your lawn on Saturday?
    Well, I guess I don't get to mow my lawn at all.

    Telling my neighbor he should mow his lawn on Sunday (when it goes against his belief system) would be a lack of courtesy, choosing to mow my lawn on Sunday does not infringe on his belief system in any way, shape, or form.

    Where do you draw the line? I'm curious to know?
    What if I have a belief that all children should be homeschooled? Do I have a right to extend that belief to everyone in my community? Do I have a right to ostracize you because you don't share my belief?
    What if I have a belief that men shouldnt cut their hair, or shave their beards? Do I have a right to impose that belief on my neighbors?

    Isn't religious freedom not only the right to your own beliefs, but ALSO my right not to have your beliefs imposed on me?

    What if an interracial couple, or a gay couple move into a community where people have strong beliefs against that? I guess the only courteous thing to do would be for that couple to break up, or move away, right?

  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Try mowing your lawn at 2 a.m. Who's problem does that become?
    Except one of these things is perfectly legal for me to do, on my own property that I paid for and pay taxes on, while the other is likely illegal.

  10. #108
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    This thread got pretty ridiculous. On the plus side, here's a nice article on sign stealing from Mr. Turbow.
    Last edited by gunnarthor; 05-04-2014 at 10:16 AM.

  11. #109
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    In further news....it appears one pitcher is safely in the "adult" group and not in the "petulant tool" group of ballplayers. Good for you Mr. Hudson.

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  14. #112
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    And, of course, it got even better today when Machado threw his bat (accidentally) down the 3rd base line. Awesome. And that was after he (accidentally) hit the A's catcher in the head with his back swing, knocking him out of the game.

    And the A's/Orioles rivalry gets better.
    Last edited by gunnarthor; 06-08-2014 at 09:18 PM.

  15. #113
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    It's a good summary, the problem with putting all of this on Machado (and a great deal of it belongs there to be sure) is that it ignores that the unwritten rules culture breeds this sort of petulance. Machado might be a whiny, over-sensitive person in general but because baseball indulges that sort of behaviors these sorts of things happen more often.

    It's sort of like arguing "unwritten rules don't cause fights, people cause fights" - I don't buy that line of argument any time it's paraded out.

  16. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    It's a good summary, the problem with putting all of this on Machado (and a great deal of it belongs there to be sure) is that it ignores that the unwritten rules culture breeds this sort of petulance. Machado might be a whiny, over-sensitive person in general but because baseball indulges that sort of behaviors these sorts of things happen more often.
    I don't think baseball indulges any bad behavior any more than any other sport. I think you can make a pretty good case that football - at all levels - does it the most.

    As to Machedo, I think he purposefully hit Norris on his backswing. That's potentially a lot more dangerous than a black eye or a fastball to the back. The league should really crack down on him on this. And hopefully he has guys in the locker room that tell him to knock that **** off.

  17. #115
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I don't think baseball indulges any bad behavior any more than any other sport. I think you can make a pretty good case that football - at all levels - does it the most.
    Only baseball has this systemic nonsense. It is uniquely a professional baseball thing in scope and severity of stupidity.

  18. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Only baseball has this systemic nonsense. It is uniquely a professional baseball thing in scope and severity of stupidity.
    You keep saying that but there really is nothing to support that. Every single sport has some form of retaliation for both real and perceived slights. Baseball is a bit different than Hockey, Basketball and Football in that it doesn't really have penalties during a play or normally physical contact so the policing is a bit different.

    But in any event, nothing Machado did was supported by the unwritten rules (in fact, it could be clearly argued that, had Machado had a better understanding of the rules, some of this stuff wouldn't have happened).

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  20. #117
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    But in any event, nothing Machado did was supported by the unwritten rules (in fact, it could be clearly argued that, had Machado had a better understanding of the rules, some of this stuff wouldn't have happened).
    "X doesn't cause fight, people cause fights" is a convenient excuse for the unwritten rules. They encourage this sort of behavior because they allow people to think there are "rules" not codified that they can retaliate against. Most of which are petty and childish.

  21. #118
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Straight from the mouth of McCarthy:

    Diamondbacks pitcher Brandon McCarthy asks, "But aren't there unwritten rules in every industry? In journalism, you can't steal sources, right? In hockey, guys don't take their skates off and slash an opponent's throat with the blade. In football, you never see a guy take off his helmet and just bludgeon an opponent. We've been playing baseball since the 1800s. We just have more unwritten rules."
    He could not have made a better argument AGAINST his own position. When you have to reach to depths like that to make a parallel, it shows just how absurd the notion that these things exist elsewhere. The unwritten rules are not just common decency and respect, they go WAY beyond that. All he could come up with was extreme examples that better illustrate how absurd baseball is.

  22. #119
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    And this is spot on.

  23. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    And this is spot on.
    And the spot on reply.

    At this point, I just don't get your position. Earlier in this thread you said you were ok with a guy retaliating in certain circumstances. Later, you compared being hit with a pitch to assault but wouldn't go that far against hockey players or football players. I honestly can't follow your logic on this issue.

    To me, the concept of unwritten rules is fine. It makes the game more fun, makes rivalries better. I think every sport has some form of them - in tennis it's considered bad form to hit the ball into a defenseless player, for instance, and when they do, they get saddled with bad reputations.

    You will never be able to (successfully) make an argument that baseball is the only sport that polices conduct. Players in every sport push, shove, hit, tackle, spit - or "assault" as you called it - after a play all the time.

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