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Thread: Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"

  1. #1
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"


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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    When the talent scouts can find someone who plays adequate defense and can hit Florimon will be replaced. Until then Florimon can put up a number that would be a horrible IQ once you remove the decimal point and still play everyday.
    Did Florimon object to a goat in the DR this winter and make someone angry?

  3. #3
    Well I am not against keeping Floriman, but if we are going to have a utility player to replace him it should be someone who gives you something different, not Escobar...........I think if we had Nunez and Floriman, depending on who we are playing would dictate who plays short.........example, if we are playing a good offensive team where we will most likely need to score runs, I would play Nunez, and if we would play a team that is weak offensively , then we need our best defensive player(s) in game..........we do it all the time with our OF, we play our offensive players early and take them out for the 8th and or 9th inning, why cant we do that with shortstop on a game to game basis? Just my thinking.

  4. #4
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    I waver on this. I think back to the SS merry go round and am glad for a guy like Florimon out there. But he's not helping his cause at the plate.
    By the way, love the photo.

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    However, none of the five starters would classify as strikeout pitchers. They will all likely give up a hit per inning. The ball will be put in play and defense does matter.


    Thats a good point. Everything I hear about
    Nunez 's D makes me dread the day he is at SS and Gibson is pitching...

  6. #6
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    Here's what you're going to get if you replace Florimon with Nunez. Defensively, you'll go from one of the best (Florimon saved 12 runs last year, tied for 2nd in the MLB) to one of the worst (Nunez was responsible for -28 runs last year, while only playing 60% of the innings that Florimon did. That's really bad.), in exchange for a batting average of .262. Is it worth it? That's not for me to decide.

    In the big picture, the Twins are .500 and scoring runs, so there's no point in panicking or losing sleep over it. If it makes anyone feel any better, based on the eye test, he looks as sharp as I've ever seen him. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a better year defensively over last year. And obviously Pedro hitting .067 just isn't acceptable either. He's going to have to start hitting soon.

    To answer the OP's question, i'd like Florimon to take a step forward. At minimum I'd like to see him hit .240+AVG .290+OBP, 675+OPS with 10+hr's and 20+ stolen bases. Oh and I'd like to see his strike out ratio go down as well. I want to see the guy battle up there and be a tougher out.

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    Its shocking to me how difficult it is to find a mlb shortstop that can catch, throw, AND hit. I'd be happy with him if he could get his numbers back to 2013 range.

  9. #8
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I have been in the pro-Florimon camp, believing that defense is crucial and that P-Flo could raise his OBP a bit just by making contact a bit more and perhaps bunting successfully a few more times. So far (and it is really early), it looks like he doesn't have a clue at the plate. I do think that in order for Florimon to continue with the Twins 1) he needs to hit at least as well as he did last year and 2) that either he is a starter or he is relegated to the minor leagues or release.

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    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Bad news = 10 strikeouts in 30 at-bats.

    Good news = On Sunday, Florimon drilled two line shots to rightfield--and directly into Norichika Aoki's glove. Maybe he's starting to find himself.

    After 578 at-bats, Florimon has a career slash of .211/273/.310. Acceptable, for me, would be somewhere between .225 and .240 for a batting average, and around .300 OBP. Add 15 homers and 35 stolen bases, with stellar defense, and we're talking "ideal."

    I REALLY like Pedro. He's taking walks, getting on base. Eight more hits and he's batting .250. It's SO early, but if he's still below the Mendoza line in June, something will have to happen...

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    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    This reminds me a little of the Aaron Hicks struggles from last year. It is magnified because it is the beginning of the season. Also, as DFGG indicated, he's a bit snake bit. His BABIP is .100. Last year is was .284. Because he hits a lot of ground balls, his BABIP will be lower than average, about what it was last year. So he obviously is a bit unlucky. Let's see if some of those liners start finding holes, as they did with Aaron Hicks last year, before making a critical mistake. I would give him into May.

    The numbers on Nunez are just bad. If he hit better, I could see it. But he hits just a little better than Escobar while playing poor defense. Before giving him a chance, why not give the job to Escobar? Every indication from AAA suggests Nunez is seen as a utility guy. If you need to send Florimon down (passing him through waivers), you could promote Escobar to the everyday shortstop and give Nunez his job. I would be OK with that. I just don't want a -40 UZR guy at short everyday, not when we are scoring runs, and not with three starters who throw a lot of sinkers.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    This is one that numbers cannot tell offensively. Florimon is a rally killer. If he made outs while making some contact and moved up (or scored) runners, a low slash line would be acceptable. But he is truly horrible. Below the Butera line and that says a ton.

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    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    The numbers on Nunez are just bad. If he hit better, I could see it. But he hits just a little better than Escobar while playing poor defense. Before giving him a chance, why not give the job to Escobar? Every indication from AAA suggests Nunez is seen as a utility guy. If you need to send Florimon down (passing him through waivers), you could promote Escobar to the everyday shortstop and give Nunez his job. I would be OK with that. I just don't want a -40 UZR guy at short everyday, not when we are scoring runs, and not with three starters who throw a lot of sinkers.
    Yeah, given the way they are playing Nunez everywhere, this might be the plan. Give Escobar a chance to win the job.

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    To me it is whether or not the Twins will score enough runs down the road to justify having such a weak hitter as Florimon in the lineup everyday. And we'll not know that definitively until many more games are played, will we? Ideally it would be good to be able to pinch hit for Florimon in later innings of games. But that is damn near impossible now with thirteen pitchers active on the roster. What other MLB team is carrying thirteen pitchers anyway?

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    Here's a simple but useful way to look at it - call it Bill James in the 5th grade. First of all, nobody gets more frustrated than me watching Florimon bat. Its not even the lack of hits but the lack of productive outs that really drive me nuts, however.....

    The difference between Florimon at .210 and Nunez at .260 is 25 hits over 500 ABs (call it one season). Assume the majority of those "difference" hits are singles, which they likely are given the light hitting nature of the position. Also assume that many of those 25 are going to be hits that occur when there are no run scoring opportunities.

    Now examine from a fielding perspective. Given the nature of the plays at shortstop, an error or an extra ball that Florimon would track down due to his greater range, would be roughly the equivalent of a single, very similar to the extra hits examined above. Like above, some would happen during run scoring opportunities, most would not.

    So, we could quantify the difference as: would the total of Florimon's fewer errors plus the extra balls he would get to be greater than 25? I am guessing the answer to this is clearly yes, especially if you consider double plays he starts on balls Nunez wouldn't get to.

    Clearly, both players are flawed and what we really need is a guy that can field and hit adequately but in the current environment, we are probably better off with the better defense. I'm sure somebody that is better with sabrmetrics could use OPS to do a similar, better examination but I think, in a crude way, this illustrates that unless one hitter is going to provide much more in the way of extra base hits, the difference isn't as large as people tend to assume.
    Last edited by Linus; 04-15-2014 at 08:35 AM.

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  20. #15
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I don't think Florimon will ever hit enough to be an asset. I'm pretty sure the Twins have come to the same conclusion.

    That said, I don't think the Twins have a better alternative at the moment.

    I don't think Escobar will hold up defensively as an every day SS, and wont hit much better if he plays every day, Nunez hits better than either but the downgrade defensively probably makes it a wash at best, and Santana would currently be worse than all three, IMO.

    And none of this should be considered unexpected.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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    This isn't like Hicks, since Floriman was never good in the minors, and not good in the majors. He's just bad at hitting. The question is how bad, and how good is his defense? I have no idea, but if he hits around the Mendoza line, there is no amount of defense that can make up for that, imo. There is no real optino at this point, so keep him here, I guess.....but I'd not be upset at all if they tried others at some point this year.

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    I think Nunez will be up soon but not to play short. My guess is that he is going to be the utility guy that Gardy wanted (see Bartlett). My hope is that when this happens, Florimon is sent down and they give Escobar two months to see what he can do. He probably won't cut it but the way they are handling him right now, we will never know what his potential is. If Santana shows any promise in Rochester, bring him up after the All Star break and give the entire remainder of the season.

  25. #18
    I have accepted that Florimon will never be much of a hitter. But is it too much to ask for him to learn how to bunt? If he could at least move a runner along or bunt for a base hit occasionally, he would become more tolerable. Even watching him try that has been...trying.

  26. #19
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    The slash line that P-Flo put up last year was below acceptable in my opinion. I would have replaced him then if there was any kind of alternative, but the Twins didn't (and still don't) have any alternatives.

  27. #20
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    The bunting thing... ugh. It's one thing if you're a player that can effectively bunt for hits, but no AL team should have a hitter in their lineup whose best offensive contribution is a sacrifice bunt.

    I could go on about how much I hate the sac bunt in the American League... but that's a different blog.

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