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Thread: Wilson Ramos to miss 4-8 weeks

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Getting hurt has nothing to do with "toughness". It happens. Hamate fractures (like what Ramos has) are commonplace in baseball. It happens.

    I guess Adrian Peterson is not as tough as Joe Mauer because of all the knee problems then, using the same logic...

    Hope that Ramos recovers quickly. He is a good guy and has been through a lot already including a kidnapping and deserves a break.
    I'm not sure "being a nice guy" precludes someone from pointing out Ramos has had an ACL injury, hamstring injury, and hamate bone injury (in addition to being kidnapped) in the course of 2+ seasons. Bad luck or not he is injury prone.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Agree on Ramos. Awful, awful, trade. And, from the Nationals side, Ramos has already given them more value than Capps. And they still have him. I love win now trades when your team is really good, but that was not the case. But we see quite clearly that Gardy loves proven veterans. I do no know how that could not be more clear after this spring.
    You do know Gardy's teams were usually among the youngest in baseball, right? I mean, people always seem to remember 12 starts for Livian Hernandez and ignore the 114 starts Kyle Lohse got before he turned 26.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by savvyspy View Post
    I'm not sure "being a nice guy" precludes someone from pointing out Ramos has had an ACL injury, hamstring injury, and hamate bone injury (in addition to being kidnapped) in the course of 2+ seasons. Bad luck or not he is injury prone.
    He was injury prone in the minors too. That's part of why his prospect status fell a bit and Baseball America noted that the Twins had issues with Ramos' conditioning. And, before all his injuries, he defense was coming under question in Washington.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    He was injury prone in the minors too. That's part of why his prospect status fell a bit and Baseball America noted that the Twins had issues with Ramos' conditioning. And, before all his injuries, he defense was coming under question in Washington.
    Catchers get hurt. Mauer was the most durable catcher outside of Pierzinski and everybody complained that he was injury prone. One of the reasons you don't trade catchers is because they get hurt. It's a tough job that is only tougher now that every hitter takes five pitches before swinging the bat. Also, pitchers throw a lot harder and guys swing a lot harder than they did just 20 years ago. So foul tips do a lot more damage. It's a war zone back there.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Catchers get hurt. Mauer was the most durable catcher outside of Pierzinski and everybody complained that he was injury prone. One of the reasons you don't trade catchers is because they get hurt. It's a tough job that is only tougher now that every hitter takes five pitches before swinging the bat. Also, pitchers throw a lot harder and guys swing a lot harder than they did just 20 years ago. So foul tips do a lot more damage. It's a war zone back there.
    I agree that it's a warzone but disagree on making that a reason not to trade catchers. Ignoring the Capps trade for a second, Ryan has already made two solid trades involving catchers - both times getting more than what most fans thought the value should be. If the Nats came to us and wanted Pinto for AJ Cole, we'd jump all over that, wouldn't we?

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    The Capps trade was a win-now trade. The Twins traded 6+ years of Ramos for a year and a half of Capps. So obviously the longterm value was likely to be Ramos (although their value over the 1.5 years was basically equal). That's just the reality of win-now trades and those were the type of trades fans were clamoring for Ryan to do when he was GM and he rarely did. The Twins had lost 10 games in the standings in a month and their pitching was nosediving. It was a fair trade.
    It was a win-now trade, but it was still misguided. The Twins were overrating Capps.

    When fans say they want Ryan to make a trade to win now, they mean trade for a difference maker to put them over the top. Capps was never that kind of player.

  7. These 2 users like Boom Boom's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

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  8. #27
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I agree that it's a warzone but disagree on making that a reason not to trade catchers. Ignoring the Capps trade for a second, Ryan has already made two solid trades involving catchers - both times getting more than what most fans thought the value should be. If the Nats came to us and wanted Pinto for AJ Cole, we'd jump all over that, wouldn't we?
    OK, let me revise my statement. You only trade catchers when:

    A. They are not top prospects
    B. You have a catching surplus
    C. You get a lot in return

    I liked the Butera trade because he's a career back-up at best and we had Fryer. I also think Sulbaran is a much better prospect than we could reasonably expect. Similar story with Doumit, who wasn't really a catcher (more of a DH).

    But I would not like trading Pinto because he's every bit as good as Ramos was (in my book anyway--less power, better hit tool, similar defense) and we don't have any starting catching prospects above single A. I wouldn't jump all over a Pinto for Cole trade. It is a better trade than Ramos for Capps. Cole is a good looking prospect. He'd be behind Meyer and ahead of May. But we have more catching scarcity than pitching scarcity right now, especially in the high minors. So I probably wouldn't do that deal.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  9. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    2) was the Caps trade really that bad after all?
    IMO the trade is yet another move where the strategy was sound but the talent eval failed. Either the Twins eval of Ramos, Capps, or both players.

    I like the strategy of trading catching for pitching (or other players) for 3 reasons:

    1. The trend in concussions and other injury risks inherent to catching make them a risky investment. Although probably not quite as risky as pitching.

    2. Catchers can provide more value faster with good defense than other position players due to the sheer number of guaranteed opportunities (framing, blocking, pitch calling, etc).

    3. These misc. skills aren't valued proportionately to traditional batting stats in free agency yet. Eg. Jose Molina signing for .3 to 3 million dollars / year for the past 10 years compared to Joe Mauer signing for 23m/year.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    OK, let me revise my statement. You only trade catchers when:

    A. They are not top prospects
    B. You have a catching surplus
    C. You get a lot in return

    I liked the Butera trade because he's a career back-up at best and we had Fryer. I also think Sulbaran is a much better prospect than we could reasonably expect. Similar story with Doumit, who wasn't really a catcher (more of a DH).

    But I would not like trading Pinto because he's every bit as good as Ramos was (in my book anyway--less power, better hit tool, similar defense) and we don't have any starting catching prospects above single A. I wouldn't jump all over a Pinto for Cole trade. It is a better trade than Ramos for Capps. Cole is a good looking prospect. He'd be behind Meyer and ahead of May. But we have more catching scarcity than pitching scarcity right now, especially in the high minors. So I probably wouldn't do that deal.
    Fair enough.

  11. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Ramos' durability may be hurting the Nats right now, but his injury while with the Twins was largely what cost us a shot at Cliff Lee and the subsequent Capps deal.

    So any ding his injuries are to the Nats now pale in comparison to how they hurt us.

  12. #31
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    IMO the trade is yet another move where the strategy was sound but the talent eval failed. Either the Twins eval of Ramos, Capps, or both players.

    I like the strategy of trading catching for pitching (or other players) for 3 reasons:
    Even if Capps was a top closer, I would hesitate to make that move. Relievers are the easiest pieces on a team to replace. Catchers are the hardest. I would consider trading a catcher for a starter, especially a 1-2. But not a closer. In Capps, case, he was not even that good of a closer--more in the Eddie Guardado mold than Joe Nathan. All guts. Those guys are a easy to find. We had a guy like that on the team (Crain) but they refused to consider him for that role.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  13. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Even if Capps was a top closer, I would hesitate to make that move. Relievers are the easiest pieces on a team to replace. Catchers are the hardest. I would consider trading a catcher for a starter, especially a 1-2. But not a closer. In Capps, case, he was not even that good of a closer--more in the Eddie Guardado mold than Joe Nathan. All guts. Those guys are a easy to find. We had a guy like that on the team (Crain) but they refused to consider him for that role.
    I'd probably aim for a starter too, but I disagree elite defensive catchers are hard to replace. Last year there were 3 who hit free agency - Ross, Molina, and McCann. The year before 3 - Ross, Molina, Martin. Undoubtedly there are minor league journeymen and backups out there who are just as skilled but nobody seems to be scouting those guys with the exception of a couple teams.

    Meanwhile guys like Pierzynski and Saltalamacchia (and Mauer) get paid millions for their bats even though they are inferior defensive catchers and overall provide similar value.

    Its such an obvious area ripe for exploitation, and actually, I think Pinto would be a great candidate to move due to his solid bat and lousy defense. Someone will overpay for him.

  14. #33
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    Ramos hurt again!

    Per MLBTR:
    Nationals' Ramos To Undergo Hamate Surgery

    By Jeff Todd [April 1 at 8:06pm CST]
    Nationals catcher Wilson Ramos is likely to undergo a procedure to repair an injury to his left hamate bone, report Adam Kilgore and James Wagner of the Washington Post. The surgery will likely keep Ramos out of action for four to eight weeks, according to the report.
    The news is a major disappointment for the Nats, and even moreso for the unlucky Ramos, who returned last year from an ACL tear only to deal with hamstring issues over the first half of the season. Ramos, 26, was expected to play a major role for a Washington club that hopes to return to the top of the NL East this year. In just 303 plate appearances last year, he clubbed 16 home runs and put up a .272/.307/.470 triple-slash.
    It is not yet known, of course, how the team will address the loss. The Nationals acquired Jose Lobaton in mid-February to serve as the backup catcher, and can certainly lean on him in a starting role for some time. The likeliest internal candidates to take Ramos's roster spot are Sandy Leon and Jhonatan Solano, who have filled in at the MLB level in past years. Washington let veteran Chris Snyder leave at the end of the spring, and he has since signed on with the Rangers.
    A new acquisition will surely tempt GM Mike Rizzo given the team's readiness to win, Ramos's fairly extensive medical history, and the fact that hamate injuries often sap power for some time even after a player returns. But at this early stage of the season, it would be effectively impossible to find a player that offers a reasonable hope of filling Ramos's substantial expected production. And it could be hard even to find someone that would provide much of an upgrade over the team's internal options for the reserve role.

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