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Thread: Time for Accountability

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    . Also, some leaders are great with experienced employees, and some are great with new employees. Just because a manager was considered great in one context, does not mean he is in another (nor does it mean they aren't).
    He was manager of the year in 2010, finished in 2nd 2006, 2008, and 2009. Could very well be with Gardy though, seems like he never says boo regarding a veteran.
    Last edited by tobi0040; 03-26-2014 at 11:26 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Well, mike, I certainly wouldn't venture an opinion about how much the Tonkin selection was a matter of skill versus luck. I'll leave that to you, my friend..
    My guess is we were the only team scouting Tonkin and that was because Kubel tipped us off. Extremely lucky.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    My guess is we were the only team scouting Tonkin and that was because Kubel tipped us off. Extremely lucky.
    I can't imagine we were the only team scouting Lewis Thorpe, let alone some US kid. We might have been the only one that stuck around, for whatever reason, but there is no way other teams didn't at least once kick the tires on him. Heck, 19 kids from his high school have been drafted (3 in the year he was), 4 made the majors. It wasn't like he was playing in some far away area.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I can't imagine we were the only team scouting Lewis Thorpe, let alone some US kid. We might have been the only one that stuck around, for whatever reason, but there is no way other teams didn't at least once kick the tires on him. Heck, 19 kids from his high school have been drafted (3 in the year he was), 4 made the majors. It wasn't like he was playing in some far away area.
    Tonkin was the one mentioned. But let's not get carried away about Thorpe. I am as excited as anyone, but we are talking about one year in rookie ball.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    I've been reading TD since its inception and can honestly say I don't recall a single time that this absurd idea has been expressed.
    I don't buy that they are getting all the production out of these guys and they would be worse with other coaches. I don't think they should get the blame for the talent, but how many of these guys are out-performing? About as many as under-performing in my eyes. Diamond in 2012, Dozier in 2013. But Hicks and Gibson (albeit only 10 starts) come to mind on the other end of the spectrum.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Tonkin was the one mentioned. But let's not get carried away about Thorpe. I am as excited as anyone, but we are talking about one year in rookie ball.
    And let's not get carried away wi9th Tonkin either. He was brought up as one of many examples of good results. And the argument wasn't that there aren't plenty of examples of bad results.

    I found it humorously ironic that I was trying to suggest looking at the whole body of work rather than jumping on the Worley case as an example of incompetence. One of the many names I raised was Tonkin, and the next comment was about him in isolation, with a view expressed that finding and developing him was just dumb luck. But, of course, finding Buxton was just dumb luck too. A monkey could get that pick right. Missing on Levi Michael with the 31st pick though? Now hey, that's incompetence. These are sentiments that have been expressed here.

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  8. #47
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    I find it interesting how much more flawed Ben Revere's game gets when there is a need to formulate a rationalization for this front office's ineptitude.

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  10. #48
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Someone suggested the Twins send Worley to AAA to work in short relief -- was that you? I thought it sounded like a good idea. If Worley can't get through 4, 5, 6 innings, break the task down and let him work on getting three outs instead. Build him back up.

    No easy answers. I'd add Diamond too. In 2012 the Twins spoke of Diamond as the real deal, a great find, someone who would be a regular starter for us. If not a fireballer then at least in the "crafty left hander" mold. I wasn't on these boards in 2012 so maybe there are countless threads demonstrating Diamond's imminent demise, who knows. I'm more disappointed Diamond didn't work out than Worley but disappointed about Worley too.
    I'm one of the starry-eyed optimists who hoped Worley could be salvaged by at least initially working in relief.

    While there may not have been anybody predicting Diamond's imminent demise after the 2012 season, there were several people doubting whether he could repeat that performance. Starters who get fewer than 6 K's per 9 innings (and Diamond was well below that) have to have everything else go right: great control, high ground ball rate, low home run rate, no bad luck on strand rate and balls in play.

    Even so, 2013 was a much steeper decline than almost anyone expected, even allowing for the fact that he had bone chips removed in the offseason.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 03-26-2014 at 02:14 PM.

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by savvyspy View Post
    I find it interesting how much more flawed Ben Revere's game gets when there is a need to formulate a rationalization for this front office's ineptitude.
    I find it interesting when a thread starts by assuming the front office is inept in order to demonstrate that the front office is inept. Reductio ad oops.

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  13. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by savvyspy View Post
    I find it interesting how much more flawed Ben Revere's game gets when there is a need to formulate a rationalization for this front office's ineptitude.
    You don't need to look very hard at Ben Revere to see the massive flaws in his game.

    He's a speedster with no plate discipline that can barely hit it to the gaps. Not exactly a foundation-type player as his legs begin to show wear and tear through his mid-20s.

    Ben Revere has zero appreciable baseball skills if he loses a step. He's the type of guy you trade the moment someone offers something for him.

    It's unfortunate that it didn't work out for the Twins (unless May breaks out). Meh. Disappointing.

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  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    You don't need to look very hard at Ben Revere to see the massive flaws in his game.

    He's a speedster with no plate discipline that can barely hit it to the gaps. Not exactly a foundation-type player as his legs begin to show wear and tear through his mid-20s.

    Ben Revere has zero appreciable baseball skills if he loses a step. He's the type of guy you trade the moment someone offers something for him.
    .
    We got a high upside guy in May for Revere. You take that and hope for the best. Whether or not he makes it does not make that a bad trade.

    Ben Revere has 45 extra base hits in 1,400 MLB at bats. His OPS is .654 and his arm is a liability. I would say that trade was a coup. Now the fact that we gave Worley the opening day nod and he got so many innings speaks to how horrible our staff was. But that is a deal you do seven days of the week.

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  17. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    We got a high upside guy in May for Revere. You take that and hope for the best. Whether or not he makes it does not make that a bad trade.

    Ben Revere has 45 extra base hits in 1,400 MLB at bats. His OPS is .654 and his arm is a liability. I would say that trade was a coup. Now the fact that we gave Worley the opening day nod and he got so many innings speaks to how horrible our staff was. But that is a deal you do seven days of the week.
    Yep. I will not fault the Twins for making that trade even if it doesn't pan out.

    Of course, it would have looked a lot better if Worley didn't implode.

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  19. #53
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Revere was also a top 100 prospect, and unlike the other 2 players involved in the trade, had achieved some success in the Show, and still has upside in the bank even today.

  20. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Revere was also a top 100 prospect, and unlike the other 2 players involved in the trade, had achieved some success in the Show, and still has upside in the bank even today.
    What upside would you suggest Revere has?

    He has basically averaged this per year (divdiding career totals by 2.2)

    .285 average, .324 OBP, .330 Slugging, .654 OPS, 14 doubles, 6 triples, 0 HR, 36 RBI, 33 BB, 36 SB.

    The SB are the only above average number. Everything else is well below average except the average, but factor in they are all singles and that isn't good.

    Even when he hit .330 in the minors he did not take any walks or have any power at all. So I would argue he is never sniffing an OPS of .700. I wonder if a stat exists to judge how many runners advanced on an OF arm. Becuase I would be Revere would lead the league in that one. I think Terry knew he was not an MLB player and made the move before everyone else knew it.

  21. #55
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    It amazes me people ignore defense when commenting on Ben Revere.....

    Frankly, I want Tonkin on this roster now. I think he's a legit MLB player right now. He has turned out to be a good pick for sure. I hope they have more of those going forward.

    I'm not sure anyone here has said Buxton was a lucky pick......nor has anyone said a monkey could make that pick. Indeed, I have admitted I was probably wrong in wanting Appel.
    Lighten up Francis....

  22. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    It amazes me people ignore defense when commenting on Ben Revere.....

    Frankly, I want Tonkin on this roster now. I think he's a legit MLB player right now. He has turned out to be a good pick for sure. I hope they have more of those going forward.

    I'm not sure anyone here has said Buxton was a lucky pick......nor has anyone said a monkey could make that pick. Indeed, I have admitted I was probably wrong in wanting Appel.
    I commented on his arm, which I am amazed people forget when talking about an outfielder. He has one of the five worst arms in baseball. Hands down.

  23. #57
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    Arm<<<<<<<<<<<<Range.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  25. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I commented on his arm, which I am amazed people forget when talking about an outfielder. He has one of the five worst arms in baseball. Hands down.
    What he lacked in arm strength he made for with occasional accuracy issues as well. It occurred to me once that if equipped with a special kevlar-topped shoe, Ben may have more success punting the ball into infield than throwing it.

    Probably the worst thing about the trade (which I liked) for me was that no Revere meant that the Twins completely sold out to the notion that Hicks was the center fielder of the present and the pre-Buxton future.

    Hasn't worked that way so far. For people concerned about squeezing every possible win out of a 90+ loss season, Revere was a huge loss last year and probably will continue to be a better player than Hicks et al for another season.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 03-26-2014 at 04:00 PM.

  26. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    His fall may remain inexplicable. Levi, but don't you think this happens with pitchers often? I'm sincere about this question: do you see a one-way pattern that indicates they have a systemic organizational problem with evaluation or the coaching of pitchers or players in general? You're pretty fair in your criticisms, and I respect that.
    I'm not saying it doesn't, I've been very clear to not cite the team as the sole cause. It could be 60/40 Worley/Team or 33/33/33 Personal/Injury/Coaching. I don't know what the cause is, but I do know the result is aggravating.

    It's also aggravating to watch two threads about the disappointment of this result turn into Revere bashing as a way to side-step the real issue.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 03-26-2014 at 04:25 PM.

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  28. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    What upside would you suggest Revere has?
    The upside is batting average. I personally think with his speed and contact tendencies he can challenge for a batting title.

    Also I wasn't opposed to trading Revere, I just think he's a lot better talent than a 4th OFer as someone called him. The strategy made sense at the time - trade from a position of stregth to backfill a weakness. But its looking like the talent eval missed the mark, for sure on Worley and probably on Revere too. TBD on May but even there, the early returns aren't especially promising.

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