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Thread: Heyman: Twins Place Worley on Waivers

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    But they should be judged on risks. I could make a trade of an OF for a SP.....they are paid to make good decisions. This one looks pretty bad right now.
    How many more wins would the Twins have had last year with Revere, without Worley? What's the value of May to the future? I think Revere for Worley nets out to zero win difference and May still as a ton of upside.

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    In Nick's notebook today, he quotes Gardy on Worley. The gist: Not enough differential between the velocity of his pitches. On Tuesday, I watched him throw everything between 81 and 91. Most of his pitches were between 86 and 91. And none of his pitches have enough movement to pull that off.

    I hope he goes down there and works on a split or a change or a slower curveball. He needs to do like Mike Trombley did in the mid-90s. He was outrighted off the 40-man, went down and learned the split finger, and returned as a decent reliever.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  4. #43
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    But they should be judged on risks. I could make a trade of an OF for a SP.....they are paid to make good decisions. This one looks pretty bad right now.
    As I recall, the TD community liked this decision when it was made. I still think it was a quality decision.

  5. #44
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    The Worley part of this trade looks pretty bad. We sure could have used Revere last year, giving Hicks an extra year to develop. Also, acquiring Worley gave us a false sense of security, taking us out of the market for better options on the FA market (e.g. Scott Feldman).

    All that is in hindsight. Most people here looked at his shiny numbers from 2011 as evidence that Revere for Worley straight up was a good deal, and May was just gravy. We were wrong, and we should have known better. 2011 was an aberration in his career. Irrational exuberance took hold, and I will be the first to take my share of the blame for that.

    Now it all hinges on May. And that is by no means a sure thing. I continue to believe that a Revere for May trade is a good one. I think May is underrated by people like KLaw. But he needs to progress if he is to be a quality starter. In particular, he needs to improve his strike to ball ratio. Worst case, he'll be a decent reliever. Ben revere for a decent reliever is a bad trade. Ben Revere for a good starter is a good trade.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    How many more wins would the Twins have had last year with Revere, without Worley? What's the value of May to the future? I think Revere for Worley nets out to zero win difference and May still as a ton of upside.
    Worley had negative WAR last year, and even hurt, Revere put up positive WAR. And, he can at least play D in the majors. RIght now, it is unclear that Worley ever pitches a MLB game again. I don't know how you can think that.

    edit: Revere was 24, had just put up 2.1 or so WAR, and was an elite defender. He had value. Doesn't matter "how many more wins" they would have had last year. That's like saying I should give away my car because I can't win the Indy 500......
    Last edited by mike wants wins; 03-21-2014 at 05:29 PM.
    Lighten up Francis....

  7. #46
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    In Nick's notebook today, he quotes Gardy on Worley. The gist: Not enough differential between the velocity of his pitches. On Tuesday, I watched him throw everything between 81 and 91. Most of his pitches were between 86 and 91. And none of his pitches have enough movement to pull that off.

    I hope he goes down there and works on a split or a change or a slower curveball.
    81-91 can be 4-5 different pitches

    Change ups (split finger included) are usually -10 or so from 4 seamers, he might have a 2-seamer, a slider, a slurve and a cutter in that range as well. Unless someone is throwing something like a slow curve or a palmball or a knuckleball, hard to see more than 10 mph average spread.

    Really
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  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    The Worley part of this trade looks pretty bad. We sure could have used Revere last year, giving Hicks an extra year to develop. Also, acquiring Worley gave us a false sense of security, taking us out of the market for better options on the FA market (e.g. Scott Feldman).

    All that is in hindsight. Most people here looked at his shiny numbers from 2011 as evidence that Revere for Worley straight up was a good deal, and May was just gravy. We were wrong, and we should have known better. 2011 was an aberration in his career. Irrational exuberance took hold, and I will be the first to take my share of the blame for that.

    Now it all hinges on May. And that is by no means a sure thing. I continue to believe that a Revere for May trade is a good one. I think May is underrated by people like KLaw. But he needs to progress if he is to be a quality starter. In particular, he needs to improve his strike to ball ratio. Worst case, he'll be a decent reliever. Ben revere for a decent reliever is a bad trade. Ben Revere for a good starter is a good trade.
    I was against trading Revere without a decent backup plan for Hicks. Having said that, the trade was fairly logical, getting a cost-controlled guy with some proven SP chops, on a potential bounce-back year. One year later, with the benefit of hinsdight, it's difficult to fathom that Vanimal was the opening day starter and started 3 of the first 10 games last year.

    And good point about the meat of the argument. Revere for RP May is not a good trade. But I am still very optimistic that Gene Glynn and AAA coaching staff turns the light on for May- as he has for many of his starters under his tenure- to elevate his peripheral stat-game to major-league-ready SP. And May's stuff is well ahead of what Glynn has had to work with in the recent past.

    (Don't know if Glynn can do anything to salvage Worley).

  9. #48
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Glad he cleared. I still think he can have some value.

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    But they should be judged on risks. I could make a trade of an OF for a SP.....they are paid to make good decisions. This one looks pretty bad right now.
    The safe route is to never trade established position players for young pitchers. The position player side will win the trade more often.

    It may take four or five similar trades to win on one. Solid above average starting pitchers are so hard to find it might be worth winning on just one of four. They will likely lose the Span deal also. Meyer may get injured. He may be a reliever.

    Regardless of how May and Meyer turn out, I still believe the Twins need to make those kinds do deals until they rebuild the pitching throughout the organization.

  11. #50
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Anyone have a favorite Worley highlight?
    This thread.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    81-91 can be 4-5 different pitches

    Change ups (split finger included) are usually -10 or so from 4 seamers, he might have a 2-seamer, a slider, a slurve and a cutter in that range as well. Unless someone is throwing something like a slow curve or a palmball or a knuckleball, hard to see more than 10 mph average spread.

    Really
    The post mentioned most of his pitches being between 86 and 91, with 91 being the high. I think we can infer that his fastball wasn't a consistent 91. If 91 is the maximum and 81 is the minimum, I can see that being a problem. Now, if he was working that and touching 93 when needed, different story. But you still would like to see a curve (even a hard curve) drop below slider territory. Splitting hairs here, I suppose. If he went 4 and struck out 5 with no walks in the same parameters, nobody would have given this any thought. Just one more theory on what might be broken.

  14. #52
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    81-91 can be 4-5 different pitches

    Change ups (split finger included) are usually -10 or so from 4 seamers, he might have a 2-seamer, a slider, a slurve and a cutter in that range as well. Unless someone is throwing something like a slow curve or a palmball or a knuckleball, hard to see more than 10 mph average spread.

    Really
    Hughes has a FB that touches 95. He has a curve that hits 78. That' the kind of differential I'm talking about.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #53
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    Anyone have a favorite Worley highlight?
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    This thread.
    So says the master of pithy schadenfreude
    (Hurts so good, Snepp)

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