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Thread: RBI "Most Over-Rated stat"

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    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    RBI "Most Over-Rated stat"

    There was a thread that was being derailed by RBI talk, but I found the RBI talk interesting...

    RBI is the most over-rated hitting stat because it is associated with one player, but it tells you info about the team.

    What say you?

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Second most over-rated. Most over-rated is Game Winning RBI
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    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Wins for middle relievers. Please stop handing out wins for pitching a single inning, or out for that matter.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Wins for middle relievers. Please stop handing out wins for pitching a single inning, or out for that matter.
    The OP said "hitters"

    Otherwise a "win" for a pitcher (any pitcher) is the single most meaningless stat, because pitchers cannot win a game (unless they are in the NL and hit.) The best a pitcher can do is to avoid runs to score. Offense wins games.
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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    The OP said "hitters"

    Otherwise a "win" for a pitcher (any pitcher) is the single most meaningless stat, because pitchers cannot win a game (unless they are in the NL and hit.) The best a pitcher can do is to avoid runs to score. Offense wins games.
    A pitcher can win a game, if they pitch a complete game and give up no runs (earned on unearned) they in fact do win games.

    I think wins are a bit over rated, but errors are the most over rated IMO
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    A pitcher can win a game, if they pitch a complete game and give up no runs (earned on unearned) they in fact do win games.

    I think wins are a bit over rated, but errors are the most over rated IMO
    Well... that pitcher can't pitch a complete game unless a hitter puts up a run to win the game.

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    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    A pitcher can win a game, if they pitch a complete game and give up no runs (earned on unearned) they in fact do win games.
    Some might find this article fun.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/pappas-...it-a-home-run/
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    There was a thread that was being derailed by RBI talk, but I found the RBI talk interesting...

    RBI is the most over-rated hitting stat because it is associated with one player, but it tells you info about the team.

    What say you?
    Definitely up near the top. I'd add wins, losses, and saves (which are very much team stats that one person gets credit for). I'd also add errors, which is so ridiculously subjective that I really wonder why anyone bothers tracking them anymore

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I used to buy into the "RBI are overrated" commentary. And, when it comes to it, I still agree with it.

    However, when there are runners on second and third with less than two outs, someone has to drive in those runs. It certainly isn't as important as some might think, but it is important.

    Someone's season totals don't tell me a whole lot, but again, let's not be those who think they mean nothing.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    RBI isn't overrated, its incomplete. What's missing is the denominator, RBI Opportunities.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    RBI isn't overrated, its incomplete. What's missing is the denominator, RBI Opportunities.
    Yep. But even then, we get into issues with sample size.

    Maybe over a career, it's useful... Over a season, probably not.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    RBI isn't overrated, its incomplete. What's missing is the denominator, RBI Opportunities.
    Do you mean BA with RISP?
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    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos View Post
    do you mean ba with risp?
    BARISP+




    *grumble, forum automagically removing my all-caps, grumble*
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    However, when there are runners on second and third with less than two outs, someone has to drive in those runs. It certainly isn't as important as some might think, but it is important.
    It's not really a question of whether driving in runs is important, it's a question of whether it's a repeatable, measurable skill that's a separate component of hitting ability. For the most part, what I've read suggests that 'clutch' hitting tends to be random, and highly variable from one season to the next. In other words, not really a skill.

    It doesn't mean that there aren't noteworthy factors like fly ball rate that affect, say, a player's ability to drive in a run with a sac fly, or guys who consistently underperform with RISP because they press. It just means that 'clutch' is more about perception than a quantifiable skill, and it certainly gets talked attention from Dickbert than it's due.

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    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    However, when there are runners on second and third with less than two outs, someone has to drive in those runs.
    "Hit well", and then "hit well with men on second and third" usually will take care of itself. Maybe not at the high school level, but usually at the level of ball we're talking about.

    Yes, I guess I'm saying that anything with the word "clutch" in it is my nominee for most over-rated stat.

    / edit - is that really what the OP was asking, though?
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 03-17-2014 at 05:47 PM.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    I do apologize for derailing the previous thread. It was never my intention. Truly.

    That being said:
    My point is that someone needs to drive in runs. Most great teams (dynasty teams) have had those 2 or 3 guys who did most of the damage driving in runs. Every MLB - RBI Leader over the last decade has been an All Star based on his ability to drive in runs. There are very few Ichiro corner outfielder types who make the Hall of Fame.

    Quick question: For those of you who loved Willinghams season a efw years ago - What stat made you fall in love with his season?

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    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    A pitcher can win a game, if they pitch a complete game and give up no runs (earned on unearned) they in fact do win games.

    I think wins are a bit over rated, but errors are the most over rated IMO
    In the AL that leads to a tie

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    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    I believe RBI is overrated in the sense of opportunity, as previously stated. Always depends on the actual opportunity to have a runner on base, as well as in scoring position. Over the years I've seen a lot of players hit 20 plus homers with low RBI totals and the only real explanation that makes sense is no runners on base. Don't think it would be possible to quantify a batter as only having power with nobody on base.

    Conversely, I have also seen hitters who lack ideal power who have hit 3,4,5 in lineups who seem to have a knack for knocking runners in. As Seth stated, someone has to have the ability to knock those guys in. But then again, those guys have to be on base as well. I feel Mauer, for instance, batting 3rd, playing a 150 games, is very capable of producing a 100 RBI season with his hitting ability, his doubles, and his somewhat more limited HR production. But only if there are runners on base for him to drive home.

    BA with runners OB or in scoring position might be a more useful stat. For that matter, OB% with runners on base might be a more useful stat as well as you are moving runners along, creating a better opportunity to score, but also build toward a bigger inning. RBI numbers unto themselves might be an inflated stat, or in some cases devoid of accurate representation, so much depending on opportunity as well as position in the order, but the ability to consistently garner RBI is valuable, and does reflect a certain clutch skill.

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    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    I do apologize for derailing the previous thread. It was never my intention. Truly.
    intentions be damned, it's fun to talk stats with a big group of nerds. My friends and wife's eyes all gloss over when I start these types of conversations. You brought up a great point.

    this is the forum for using data and logical arguments to discuss your favorite team/sport. Speak your mind, don't apologize for it.
    Last edited by Sconnie; 03-17-2014 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Finish my thought

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    RBI has value. In a single game, it helps to tell the story of the game. If you only have a handful of columns in a box score to tell the story of a game, RBI should probably claim one of them.

    RBI is not predictive. It doesn't have value in projection.

    I am not sure RBI is overrated. It is misused when used for projections. In telling the story of a previous game or to a lesser extent a season, it is very helpful.

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