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Thread: Diamondbacks looking for C (Pinto?) for SS (Owens/Didi).

  1. #21
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    While I don't disagree with the statement itself, neither Gregorius or Owings are even remotely close to what I'd consider elite.


    Just for comparison sake, one of these is Gregorius the other is Florimon:

    Player A 2013: 403 AB / 44 Runs / 9 HR / 44 RBI / .221 Avg / .281 OBP / .611 OPS / 2.1 WAR
    Player B 2013: 357 AB / 47 Runs / 7 HR / 28 RBI / .252 Avg / .332 OBP / .705 OPS / 1.4 WAR

    Player A minors (7 seasons): 2556 AB / 341 Runs / 32 HR / 275 RBI / .249 Avg / .321 OBP / .675 OPS
    Player B minors (6 seasons): 1766 AB / 236 Runs / 22 HR / 168 RBI / .273 Avg / .324 OBP / .705 OPS
    So what you're saying is that Gregorius would be an upgrade over Florimon without even factoring in that he's three years younger and has plenty of room to grow. Gregorius' fWAR was 1.3 to Florimon's 1.4 despite playing fewer games.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    I don't think either of them will be elite, but I don't really think Pinto will be elite either.
    I also don't disagree with this statement. I do disagree with the idea of a 1-1 swap of Pinto for Gregorius, but don't have enough insight on Owings to make much of a judgement call on that one.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    So what you're saying is that Gregorius would be a massive upgrade over Florimon without even factoring in that he's three years younger and has plenty of room to grow.
    I guess, if thats how you see it. I guess I'm just not that high on Gregorius as real solution to SS as some of you. It makes us a bit better at SS, sure, but a lot worse at catcher in the meantime.

    Edit: also, the major league numbers are a pretty small sample. The minor league numbers, I certainly wouldn't say Gregorius is showing he's necessarily a "massive upgrade"

  4. #24
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    I think maybe my posting of the stats was misinterpreted. I'm not disputing that Gregorius is the better/higher upside player. I'm just saying, trading a potentially decent offensive catcher for another SS with a crappy bat doesn't seem like much of a net positive when you look at their numbers, and then you consider all of Pinto's ABs would now be going to Herrmann, Fryer, and Suzuki.

    Part of the question also depends heavily on what you think are realistic expectations for Pinto moving forward. I'm sure if you think last year was a fluke for him, then these trades probably sound great. If you think he can put up similar numbers as last year, probably sounds awful. If you're somewhere in the middle, like me, then probably just depends which way you're leaning.

  5. #25
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    I guess, if thats how you see it. I guess I'm just not that high on Gregorius as real solution to SS as some of you. It makes us a bit better at SS, sure, but a lot worse at catcher in the meantime.

    Edit: also, the major league numbers are a pretty small sample. The minor league numbers, I certainly wouldn't say Gregorius is showing he's necessarily a "massive upgrade"
    I'm not sold on Gregorius, either. I don't even know if I'd trade him for Pinto.

    But Florimon is a bad starter. A very, very bad starter. The guy makes an out over 70% of the time he comes to the plate.

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  7. #26
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    Suzuki is worse than Floriman.....and he'd be your starter, followed by Fryer.

    new SS and those catchers?
    floriman and Pinto?
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    But Florimon is a bad starter. A very, very bad starter. The guy makes an out over 70% of the time he comes to the plate.
    Yeah, I don't think that part of the discussion is up for debate.

  9. #28
    Another way you have to look at it: We've been SPOILED ROTTEN with who our catcher has been the past decade basically. Most of that time we've had a great 1-2 with Morneau mashing HR's. Now our offensive star catcher is moving to 1B without as much firepower. We are in an offensive deficit compared to even last year. If Pinto shows up and holds his own in the majors, we're still not back to even. Keep our Catchers.

  10. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I think it will be far easier to find a catcher via FA or develop one in our minors; than it is to get an elite SS. I'm not sure that Pinto has the defensive chops to be the Twins everyday catcher. Might as well capitalize on his perceived value...
    If that is true, why would the Diamondbacks make that trade then?

    And I think that you are severely underestimating Pinto's Defense...
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  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Yeah, Tulo is going to be a 200 million type guy.
    Tulo isn't a free agent until 2020 at the earliest although it wouldn't surprise me if he is traded in the next couple seasons.

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  13. #31
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    This would be trading from a position of weakness to fill a position of weakness. We really aren't good partners here.

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  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    Player A is Pedro Florimon, Player B is Didi Gregorius.
    Oops! As deservedly highly regarded as Didi is in the field, his bat has always been, and always will be, a major question mark, notwithstanding the 3 year difference in age. Excellent statistical illustration S.!

    And I actually would greatly prefer Gregorius over Florimon, but the logic of trading away the "possible answer" for one of the Twins positional black holes for another of the black holes escapes me completely.

    If the D-Backs are really willing to make this deal, it means they must regard the trade for Gregorius in the first place as an overall failure- let alone to somehow assume that he be regarded as somehow, "elite". (They traded away a BA #9 Starting Pitching prospect to Cleveland in a 3-way deal). By signing Drew and giving up nothing except a 2nd Rd. pick, it gives the Twins the chance to buy ample time to see if one of their prospects is going to be the long-term answer, or if they need to seek another major league option somewhere farther down the road. If they do find the right candidate, Drew would then make an excellent 2B option as he approaches 35- to the Twins or someone else.
    Last edited by jokin; 02-27-2014 at 07:06 PM.

  16. #33
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Tulowitski is a pipe dream. Guess who will be looking for a SS next year? Hint: they can afford anybody.
    Allow me to clarify-- I meant Tulo would be a better target than Drew for sustained success in the future.

    Regardless, I honestly don't think we even know how the FO will spend when this team enters its window of contention. Suppressing payroll in the rebuilding process is hardly proof that TR/the Pohlads will be gun-shy when this team starts its run.

    EDIT: ah, my apologies, I had run across an article that suggested Tulo would be an acquisition target, not a potential FA signing. My apologies for my own general buffoonery.

    FWIW, the Yanks definitely don't have the pieces to acquire Tulo. We might... whether we should or not is an entirely different question.
    Last edited by B Richard; 02-27-2014 at 08:40 PM. Reason: General Buffoonery
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  17. #34
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Monkeypaws's Avatar
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    Drew hasn't his above .253 since 2010. If he was anything but a shortstop, nobody would be petitioning so vociferously to sign him.

    I still think Florimon's defense will offset any improvements Drew might provide offensively.

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  19. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeypaws View Post
    Drew hasn't his above .253 since 2010. If he was anything but a shortstop, nobody would be petitioning so vociferously to sign him.

    I still think Florimon's defense will offset any improvements Drew might provide offensively.
    BA is not an accurate descriptor of the qualitative difference between the two players, and Drew's injury years are easily thrown out of the equation. The 2013 yawning gap of 166 points between Drew's OPS of .777 versus Florimon's .611 OPS more than offsets the defensive differences, and then some by quite a bit, as reflected in the 2+ game fWAR difference between the 2 players.

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  21. #36
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    A lot of the posters on various Twins' subjects seem to automatically assume the Twins will make their "run". Granted there is a lot of young talent coming along now but that does not necessarily translate into a decent "run". What the rest of the division does plays huge in that in my mind.

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  23. #37
    Batting average absolutely is the most overrated stat. I remember a few years ago Cuddyer said as much. I took it as a shot at Mauer. He liked to take subtle shots at Mauer from time to time. There was another time Cuddy got HBP square in the hand and was back in the lineup the next day. Mauer was out at the time nursing a hangnail and Cuddy took another subtle shot at him and later apologized to Mauer. Good ole Cuddyer loved to stir things up!
    Last edited by Marta Shearing; 02-27-2014 at 09:31 PM.

  24. #38
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Batting average absolutely is the most overrated stat. I remember a few years ago Cuddyer said as much. I took it as a shot at Mauer. He liked to take subtle shots at Mauer from time to time. There was another time Cuddy got HBP square in the hand and was back in the lineup the next day. Mauer was out at the time nursing a hangnail and Cuddy took another subtle shot at him and later apologized to Mauer. Good ole Cuddyer loved to stir things up!
    We get it, you don't like Mauer.
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  26. #39
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    There's no reason to panic.

    If Pinto is going to be a good MLB hitter and hold his own defensively, then we might as well keep him and offer contracts to FA SS's next off season or until someone signs. JJ Hardy is going to be a free agent next off season and there will also be other options over the next couple of years. There will also be other trade options as well.

    Most of the young guys are still in the minors and / or still trying to establish themselves as MLB players. There's plenty of time to get a SS, if and when the Twins are ready to move on from Florimon.

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  28. #40
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I don't get this. You don't create one hole to fill another. Pinto is the future. There's no one else in the pipeline.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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