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Thread: Article: Position Battle: The Bullpen

  1. #1
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Article: Position Battle: The Bullpen


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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Hard to tell about the pen this season. Perkins, Burton, Swarzak and Duensing are the only 4 locks in my book. Plus there are some outsiders like Oliveras and Guerra who are finally healthy and knocking on the door as well.

    Interesting to see what happens
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    One must consider that this is a rebuilding team and retaining players who failed before, and failed during this preseason doesn't make any sense. This skill-level type player is always available--so losing one (or more) is no loss. Every manager has to make cuts--and some will have to go! The article defined several successful bullpen pitchers, it would be foolish to demote one of them to retain a failed starter.

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    Congratualtions on 20 years, John, and best wishes for seeing 30 and more.

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I think that Perkins, Burton, Fien, Swarzak and Duensing are givens. I think that Thielbar and Pressly should be givens but due to options probably aren't.

    When rebuilding, there's no need to give up anyone that you don't have to without getting something in return.

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  8. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    One must consider that this is a rebuilding team and retaining players who failed before, and failed during this preseason doesn't make any sense. This skill-level type player is always available--so losing one (or more) is no loss. Every manager has to make cuts--and some will have to go! The article defined several successful bullpen pitchers, it would be foolish to demote one of them to retain a failed starter.
    Maybe my perception is off but was'nt Perkins a failed starter?

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    Maybe my perception is off but was'nt Perkins a failed starter?
    Swarzak and Duensing as well. I expect one of the three option-less starters to find a spot in the pen. I'd be sad if they really do go to a 13 man staff in April to stash two of them there.

  11. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    Maybe my perception is off but was'nt Perkins a failed starter?
    "Swarzak and Duensing as well. I expect one of the three option-less starters to find a spot in the pen. I'd be sad if they really do go to a 13 man staff in April to stash two of them there."
    A guy like Diamond with fringe stuff is not the same as someone like Perk, a #1 pick with velocity. We been there done that with guys like Diamond. Would somebody really find room for him on the 25? Look what happened with Hendrix another AAAA guy. If Diamond is gone, Deduno on DL and Worley At 5 for another shot; best result IMO. But, didn't Correa already get tweaked. The other side of this is depth is good if unfamiliar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    Swarzak and Duensing as well. I expect one of the three option-less starters to find a spot in the pen. I'd be sad if they really do go to a 13 man staff in April to stash two of them there.
    Most pitchers are failed starters. But, Perkins wasn't a total bust--and as was pointed-out he had a very good fastball and slider. The "failures" I'm referencing don't have anything resembling "+ stuff".

    In a similar vein, in 2008, the Twins were convinced that they should "obtain value" for Livan Hernandez. So they hung on to him (starting him) which kept a rather successful Liriano in Rochester. Livan ran out of magic dust and the Twins frittered-away some games before DFAing him and promoting Liriano. Liriano was "more than effective" on his return. Oh, the season ended in a game 163 loss--one more "win" in the regulation 162 and the Twins win their division and go to face the Rays in post-season. Sometimes a team just has to "cut bait". This Spring will be another of those times.

  13. #10
    John, congratulations on twenty. I also "saved" my wife from the streets of Philly, soon to be 46 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Most pitchers are failed starters. But, Perkins wasn't a total bust--and as was pointed-out he had a very good fastball and slider. The "failures" I'm referencing don't have anything resembling "+ stuff".

    In a similar vein, in 2008, the Twins were convinced that they should "obtain value" for Livan Hernandez. So they hung on to him (starting him) which kept a rather successful Liriano in Rochester. Livan ran out of magic dust and the Twins frittered-away some games before DFAing him and promoting Liriano. Liriano was "more than effective" on his return. Oh, the season ended in a game 163 loss--one more "win" in the regulation 162 and the Twins win their division and go to face the Rays in post-season. Sometimes a team just has to "cut bait". This Spring will be another of those times.
    I agree. It seems like we get handcuffed because we are afraid to lose out on someone that might have success on another team. So, we put other guys on hold who may also have potential. Sometimes, you just have to make a decision and go with it. In this case, take the guys who deserve to be there. Doing anything else sends the wrong message to the rest of the guys in the minors.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    When rebuilding, there's no need to give up anyone that you don't have to without getting something in return.
    Agreed, but how would you characterize what happened to Slowey, Thome, Liriano, Young, Burnett, Hendriks et. al. and a bunch of minor leaguers including Angel Morales in the past few seasons?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Agreed, but how would you characterize what happened to Slowey, Thome, Liriano, Young, Burnett, Hendriks et. al. and a bunch of minor leaguers including Angel Morales in the past few seasons?
    Slowey, Liriano and Young returned prospects.
    Any of the recently released prospects catch fire and make it to the majors? If the answer is no then you have you answer staring at you why they were released. 20-60 prospects every year becomes mostly released players.

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    Senior Member Double-A troyhobbs's Avatar
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    I like the idea of keeping the guys without options and spot starting several guys in the 5th rotation slot as well as seeing how those same guys come out of the pen. Come trade deadline take anything you can get for anyone not named Perkins or Nolasco and bring up the young guys

  20. #15
    John, anticipatory congrats on 20 years with TVOR - glad to hear you don't want or need another option.

  21. #16
    I have an Arby's coupon that is about to expire but I already went shopping and have plenty of decent food in my kitchen. Should I use the coupon while I still can, possibly at the expense of the food I already bought? Probably not since I got Arby's last year, ate half my sandwich, decided it was not fit for human consumption, and cooked a different meal.

  22. #17
    Senior Member Double-A troyhobbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuchadoro View Post
    I have an Arby's coupon that is about to expire but I already went shopping and have plenty of decent food in my kitchen. Should I use the coupon while I still can, possibly at the expense of the food I already bought? Probably not since I got Arby's last year, ate half my sandwich, decided it was not fit for human consumption, and cooked a different meal.
    If you only eat half of your Arbys it's fine because you weren't really meant to enjoy this meal anyway, your groceries won't expire for a long time and may just go better with something not in your cupboards yet.

  23. #18
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    I have nothing against Worley or Diamond. (Excluding Deduno as healthy, he is pretty much the de-facto 5th starter, and generally agreed to have the best "stuff"). Each has climbed the milb latter with decent numbers and success, and shown in the majors what they are capable of. Unfortunately, their pure stuff is nothing outstanding, and each has also shown the ability to be down right aweful as well.

    I don't like the idea of dumping a player out of options and getting nothing in return. Especially a younger player who, in theory, has potential. And yes, many quality relievers are in fact "failed" starters.

    However, moving to the bullpen doesn't guarantee success of any kind. Further, a 5th starter with mixed results, even young, doesn't mean you have a diamond, no pun intended, just waiting to be polished, who will suddenly blossom in to something special or strong.

    I have a hard time accepting keeping a failed starter at the expense of a strong young bullpen arm out of some sense of fear of potential loss. There are times, especially with a team with loads of young talent knocking on the door, and a team in the transition phase that the Twins are, where you have to make tough decisions and let some guys go.

  24. #19
    Senior Member Triple-A Sconnie's Avatar
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    Thankfully the FO has a little time before opening day. Is a 6 man rotation out of the question?

    After watching all of the starters struggle and the bullpen seemingly run out of gas, I'm not worried about the glut of mid to back end pitching.

    Hopefully Worley and/or Diamond pitch well enough to become tradeable assets and Deduno comes back from injury healthy and effective.
    Last edited by Sconnie; 03-03-2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Autocorrect

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