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Thread: International signings 2014

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Secondly, mike, it's a question of ethics. It is not alright to behave contrary to the very obvious spirit of the rules, even if the rules aren't technically broken. We should be happy when organizations play by the rules and honor the spirit upon which they were established.
    Kind of like the obivous spirit of the rule that says when the taxpayers build you a new stadium which you claim you need to become an equal to your peers, you open up the wallet to compete with said peers to put the best possible team on the field.

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  3. #22
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    With the playing field leveling in baseball I think the Yankee's plan of just buying the cream of the crop players isn't working as well as it used to. In regards to the draft they can't just sign a talent who slipped to round 20 and give him a multi-million dollar deal to get him to sign as there is a cap in place now. With teams controlling their players for 6 years you can't buy young talent from other teams via free agency as they are usually 30 years old before they hit now. With the new cap on payroll you can't just buy your team and not pay for it once you are over the cap.

    So what is a team that can usually take advantage of other teams supposed to do. Well I guess you go and spend places where the rules are more bendable. With a farm club that is not that great and an aging team and the international market structured the way it is you hit it hard for this year and hope you can infuse some talent until they take that away as well. Playing by the spirit of the rules is for suckers or losers, right?
    Last edited by Dman; 02-14-2014 at 01:35 PM.

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  5. #23
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    I was under the impression they were more than 500K under, so thanks for the update on that. I continue to hope they spend the full amount. As for "they aren't worth it"......we are talking about less money than almost any other way they can spend money. It is a dice roll. Spending this money doe not stop them from spending it otherwise. There is no reason not to spend the money, from a baseball perspective at all. The worst thing that happens is that they get nothing for their relatively small investment.

    The rules are: if you spend over the amount in one year, you get less the next year. Those are the rules. Teams doing that ARE following the rules. They are choosing a different strategy than teams that want more money every year. Neither has the "ethical highground".
    Lighten up Francis....

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    If this were true, there would be a slew of lawsuits. With respect to these "agreements" between the clubs, I have yet to see one civil or crimnal lawsuit on a docket anywhere.
    Not all problems are resolved through lawsuits, jokin. The league will certainly address the problem.

  8. #25
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    This is a completely bogus analogy, nick. And if you didn't intend for it to be analogous, perhaps we could start a new thread on that topic, seeing as how it's such a fresh one. Geez.

  9. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The rules are: if you spend over the amount in one year, you get less the next year. Those are the rules. Teams doing that ARE following the rules. They are choosing a different strategy than teams that want more money every year. Neither has the "ethical highground".
    As much as we may not like it, and as much as it may not be in the spirit of the rules, it is perfectly allowable as long as they take the sanctions as mandated. I would say it's akin to intentionally taking a penalty in football in certain situations (e.g. committing pass interference to prevent a TD, or taking a delay of game to burn clock or give a punter a few extra yards to pin the ball), or fouling at the end of a basketball game. They're intentionally breaking the rules, knowing and accepting the consequences, because in their opinion what they gain from breaking the rules is greater than the consequences suffered.

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  11. #27
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Just a moderator note, let's try to keep the tone civil. This is an interesting thread, let's keep it that way.

    Thanks.

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    This is a completely bogus analogy, nick. And if you didn't intend for it to be analogous, perhaps we could start a new thread on that topic, seeing as how it's such a fresh one. Geez.
    How is it bogus? The team should act ethically in terms of unwritten roster manuevers but not in terms of unwritten rules involving new stadiums and commitments to fans?

    Do we need to live in a world are shenanigans against other billionaire owners is more of an injustice than shenanigans agaist the taxpaying peons?

    If it's bogus, you should probably clarify why instead of just throwing that word out there, otherwise it seems like it just doesn't fit your narrative.
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 02-14-2014 at 10:32 AM.

  13. #29
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    I honestly think that most teams want an international draft. The easiest way for that to happen is for these rules to get broken enough that the sytem fails. They tweak the rules to fix a broken system and then at the next CBA, they will be rightfully upset when teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and RedSox do what they did last year and will do this year.

    Oh, and we'll see Cubans, Japanese, and Koreans subject to it too.

    I don't like it for the players, but I do think that long term it's best for baseball.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I honestly think that most teams want an international draft. The easiest way for that to happen is for these rules to get broken enough that the sytem fails. They tweak the rules to fix a broken system and then at the next CBA, they will be rightfully upset when teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and RedSox do what they did last year and will do this year.

    Oh, and we'll see Cubans, Japanese, and Koreans subject to it too.

    I don't like it for the players, but I do think that long term it's best for baseball.
    Yes, and for middle of America teams that are not as natural of a draw for foriegn players.

  16. #31
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    Teams certainly want a draft, they want to artificially hold down salaries every way possible. I'd like to see a hybrid, something like this:

    The 10 worst teams get first crack at signing up to 3 players eligible for the "entry draft". If they sign three, they can only sign 2 the next year if they are in the bottom 10. This is totally a FA period, and it lasts for a month. Then, the non-playoff teams that that were not in the bottome 10 get to draft. Then, they have a draft like they do now. That way, the best players get their money, but only the worst teams get their crack at them. Money is given to the best players, but those players generally go to the worst teams. Because you can sign three, you get to make up ground faster. Maybe you change that to 2 guys....
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaderic20 View Post
    As much as we may not like it, and as much as it may not be in the spirit of the rules, it is perfectly allowable as long as they take the sanctions as mandated. I would say it's akin to intentionally taking a penalty in football in certain situations (e.g. committing pass interference to prevent a TD, or taking a delay of game to burn clock or give a punter a few extra yards to pin the ball), or fouling at the end of a basketball game. They're intentionally breaking the rules, knowing and accepting the consequences, because in their opinion what they gain from breaking the rules is greater than the consequences suffered.
    Agreed, but there are different degrees of ethical misconduct or rule-breaking. We may have varying opinions about how dishonest a behavior is. So, for me, taking an intentional penalty, or signing Lewin Diaz prior to July 2nd is not at all analogous to attempting to corner the international market to the dtriment of the fans of every other MLB team. One behavior is going 60MPH on Highway 100. The other is driving while crack-addled and drunk. Well, maybe not THAT bad...but you get the point.

    The violator in either case will rationalize his behavior to create a distorted truth. But the truth isn't altered. If the speed limit is 55MPH, I'm breaking the law. But when I go 60, it feels like I'm right and the law is wrong. Some things are worth getting pissy about, and personally I get pissy about what the Yankees are possibly about to do.

  18. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    How is it bogus? The team should act ethically in terms of unwritten roster manuevers but not in terms of unwritten rules involving new stadiums and commitments to fans?

    Do we need to live in a world are shenanigans against other billionaire owners is more of an injustice than shenanigans agaist the taxpaying peons?

    If it's bogus, you should probably clarify why instead of just throwing that word out there, otherwise it seems like it just doesn't fit your narrative.
    nick, I didn't want to hijack the thread. But quickly, you agreed to the stadium through the political process. No one promised you anything that hasn't been delivered. It's your own mirage that your staring at about how much spending you are entitled to and on what timetable. You are not entitled to a thing, nick. Moreover, isn't it convenient to ignore the financial and intrinsic benefits we're enjoying because of Target Field.

    So, here's my analogy of why it's a bit hypocritical for us to blast the Twins on this and pretend we're being cheated. If I was one of those who bought a cheap chunk of pasture out north of Rogers and built my new house on it, the rest of you helped me make this dream work. You bought me roads, and a sewer, and the LRT. So, thanks. But if you think, for one minute, that you have the right to tell me what to do with my house, you're mistaken. It's not yours.

    Public subsidies are part of our deal. If you work for Best Buy, or Allina, or any other company that has built facilities, the taxpayers have a few nickels invested in your cubicle. So we expect you to work real hard to make your company profitable so we get paid back in tax revenues generated from your loyal efforts. That's how the system works.

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  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Teams certainly want a draft, they want to artificially hold down salaries every way possible. I'd like to see a hybrid, something like this:

    The 10 worst teams get first crack at signing up to 3 players eligible for the "entry draft". If they sign three, they can only sign 2 the next year if they are in the bottom 10. This is totally a FA period, and it lasts for a month. Then, the non-playoff teams that that were not in the bottome 10 get to draft. Then, they have a draft like they do now. That way, the best players get their money, but only the worst teams get their crack at them. Money is given to the best players, but those players generally go to the worst teams. Because you can sign three, you get to make up ground faster. Maybe you change that to 2 guys....
    This is a very interesting idea. Since there really isn't any chance of getting an actual salary cap in baseball, an idea like this might be the most effective way to address the big market - small market inequities that exist currently.

    I also believe that there needs to be an international draft to replace all of this stuff. It makes no sense that a 23 year old Cuban can become a free agent and sign a huge contract, but the same can't happen for a kid from the States. Treat them all the same regardless of where they come from.

  21. #35
    Just to be clear, I definitely think it's ethically questionable, just wanted to play devil's advocate and give a possible explanation for some teams' thinking. You could use the logic in my previous post to justify to yourself just about any rule- or law-breaking activity. It doesn't necessarily make the activity any more or less ethical though.

    As many others here have said, I think the easiest and best solution to this is to just have an international draft.

  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    So, here's my analogy of why it's a bit hypocritical for us to blast the Twins on this and pretend we're being cheated. If I was one of those who bought a cheap chunk of pasture out north of Rogers and built my new house on it, the rest of you helped me make this dream work. You bought me roads, and a sewer, and the LRT. So, thanks. But if you think, for one minute, that you have the right to tell me what to do with my house, you're mistaken. It's not yours.
    Ironically, the plot on which Hennepin County built Target Field was acquired by eminent domain.

    Alright I did my part derailing the thread. Now to bring it back on track:

    Go Twins Go!

  23. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I was under the impression they were more than 500K under, so thanks for the update on that. I continue to hope they spend the full amount. As for "they aren't worth it"......we are talking about less money than almost any other way they can spend money. It is a dice roll. Spending this money doe not stop them from spending it otherwise. There is no reason not to spend the money, from a baseball perspective at all. The worst thing that happens is that they get nothing for their relatively small investment.

    The rules are: if you spend over the amount in one year, you get less the next year. Those are the rules. Teams doing that ARE following the rules. They are choosing a different strategy than teams that want more money every year. Neither has the "ethical highground".
    I understand how the rules are setup but what is the true intent of those rules? Is the intent to have the teams with higher revenue's willfully take the penalty and corner the market? Or is the intent to give teams with worse records a chance to become better despite there lower revenue? To me their is no question of the ethical high ground here. The teams that skirt the intention of fair play are way out of bounds ethically.

    Are they breaking the rules as currently written, No, but they are ruthlessly pillaging talent from the teams that this was designed to help, thus the system as it stands isn't really working in my opinion.

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  25. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Teams certainly want a draft, they want to artificially hold down salaries every way possible. I'd like to see a hybrid, something like this:

    The 10 worst teams get first crack at signing up to 3 players eligible for the "entry draft". If they sign three, they can only sign 2 the next year if they are in the bottom 10. This is totally a FA period, and it lasts for a month. Then, the non-playoff teams that that were not in the bottome 10 get to draft. Then, they have a draft like they do now. That way, the best players get their money, but only the worst teams get their crack at them. Money is given to the best players, but those players generally go to the worst teams. Because you can sign three, you get to make up ground faster. Maybe you change that to 2 guys....

    The problem I see is that most players whose agents are worth anything will tell them to wait until all the teams can be in to maximize their value.

    Like it or not, this was an attempt to do this without an international draft. However, as long as the big maket teams have a way of dumping their excess reserves back into the system, they will do it. I don't blame them, b/c I'd do it to, but from a best interests of baseball standpoint, there has to be a way of maintaning competitive balance, and I see this as nothing more than a way to eventually get the international draft.

  26. #39
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    Not sure I understand diehard.....there are 30 spots for 10 teams as FAs....after that, it is a draft. Unlikely they'll get nearly as much money in a draft.....certainly not all of them. The other strategy for a team could be to sign 3 2nd rounders for good money, then draft the top guys left....or a team could go all out and pay 3 guys huge money.....or a team could save their money and just pay the guy they draft.

    Thirty players, regardless of level (or 20 if you use my limit thing....) would be signed with virtual certainty. Also, this way, the PLAYERS get to choose what they do. They can sign, or they can go into the draft. Right now, they have no real choice other than to sit out 1-2 years.
    Lighten up Francis....

  27. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxisagod View Post
    Kiley McDaniel has been reporting that the International trading rules are about to be taken advantage of again, this time on a whole new spending level. For a few months now he has been writing about how the Yankees plan to blow by their international "cap" limits this year. Just like the Cubs and Rangers did last year, and the Rays the year before that. He also goes into the Game Theory: The Tragedy of the Commons to explain why this is happening now.
    The Game Theory link is a fascinating read for those who like to link sports to leadership. The Sword of Damocles? You don't get to read about that in a baseball blog too often. Cool read.

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